Saturday, October 22, 2011

Tipping Points in the Middle East

The news today reveal just how many different tipping points are in play right now and any of them could easily launch the region into the final battles/wars as described in the prophetic scriptures - wars which will lead directly into the Tribulation.

Only a little context is needed for each of these tipping points.

1. Syria

Syria - as part of the "inner circle" who will most likely invade Israel first and precipitate the Isaiah 17 scenario:

We've already seen Syria (Assad) make definitive statements regarding any "attack" from foreign forces, including Turkey and/or NATO would lead to their sending missiles into Israel. Israel has already stated that they will attack Damascus if this happens. Additionally, if Syria were to use chemical weapons, then Israel has stated that they would respond the same as if attacked by nuclear weapons. And the recipient of their "response? Damascus. Additionally, we have already seen Assad attempt to link Israel with weapons flow into areas of 'resistance' - possibly setting the stage for a desperate war with Israel. This would be a good time to brush up on Isaiah 17.

Syrian protesters to Assad: You're next

Inspired by the scenes of euphoria in Libya, Syrian protesters poured into the streets Friday and shouted that President Bashar Assad's regime will be the next to unravel now that ousted Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi is dead.

Although the mass demonstrations in Syria have shaken one of the most authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, the opposition has made no major gains in recent months, it holds no territory and has no clear leadership.

Now the armed uprising in Libya that drove Qaddafi from power — albeit with NATO air support — appears to have breathed new life into the Syrian revolt.

Some Syrians are now calling on protesters to take up arms and inviting foreign military action, hoisting signs that say "Where is NATO?" and urging the world to come to Syria's aid.

Will we see implementation of the "responsibility to protect" doctrine as we have seen put in use for Libya?

Also see:

Protesters in Syria, Yemen take to streets inspired by Gadhafi death

Syrian President Bashar Assad's security forces opened fire on the protesters, killing at least 24 people nationwide on Friday, according to activists. It did not stop the crowds from chanting, "Your turn is coming, Bashar."

The armed rebellion that drove Gadhafi from power … with NATO air support … appears to have breathed new life into the uprisings elsewhere in the Arab world.

The growing signs of armed resistance may give the government a pretext to use even greater firepower against its opponents. Authorities have already used tanks, snipers and gangster-like hired gunmen known as "shabiha."

What if Assad does get taken down? That too leads directly into a tipping point - as we have seen in Egypt and Libya, Syria will be overtaken by even more radical anti-Israeli groups - groups who would be even more likely to invade Israel:

Islamist Leadership for Syrian Revolution

Turkish Islamist regime deliberately helped produce a Syrian leadership that is more Islamist and more Muslim Brotherhood controlled than was necessary. Since Turkey’s government was empowered to do this by the Obama administration, the White House is responsible for this extremely dangerous situation.

It is a blunder or a betrayal — in effect, the motive and cause don’t matter — of the greatest dimensions. The Obama administration may “only” have paved the way for the triumph of Islamist regimes in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia — we don’t yet know the final result — but it has been actively involved in helping promote an (avoidable) Islamist revolution in Syria.

Of the 19 members of the committee whose names have been published, 4 are identified as Muslim Brotherhood and 6 more as independent Islamists. That means 10 of the 19 — a majority — and hence 10 of the 15 Sunni Muslim Arabs (two-thirds) are Islamists!

2. Libya

The entire world has been watching as the Libya's government has been overthrown. Don't forget, Libya, as part of the northern African alliance (which forms part of the "Gog-MaGog" coalition) will become more and more likely to participate in an invasion of Israel. How are current events setting up this prophetic scenario? The reality of that situation makes it apparent:

U.S. and Gullible Americans Celebrate Apparent Fortunes of Al Qaeda in Libya

At face value, the tenuous narrative of a struggling, desperate NATO confounded by months of fierce resistance on all fronts and an increasingly brutal and transparently atrocious proxy army on the ground in Libya, suddenly wringing victory from what was essentially a catastrophic failure, is difficult to believe.

...the US intervention in Libya, literally glorifies Al Qaeda’s exploits in the now ruined nation.

What is confirmed, is the jubilation coming from the West’s leadership and their ghoulish propagandists throughout the corporate-media, celebrating the apparent death of Qaddafi, and the apparent fortunes of NATO’s proxy rebel forces.

As reported earlier, NATO’s proxies, the “National Transitional Council” is led by the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) [4] an Al Qaeda affiliate and listed by both the US State Department [5] and the UK Home Office [6] as a “foreign terrorist organization,” and a “proscribed terrorist group” respectively.

In other words, we can expect to see development in Libya to follow in the footsteps of Egypt and Lebanon - which is a much more radical ISlamic regime - a regime that is much more likely to participate in war leveled against Israel.

3. Iran

We have been watching Iran closely, as Iran is a critical part of the "Gog-MaGog alliance" of Ezekiel 38-39 - an alliance who will invade Israel in a massive invasion (only to be thwarted directly by God Himself). We see tipping points being reached there as well, as Iran gets closer and closer to having functional nuclear warheads.

This video link comes courtesy of Mr. C and reveals the nearness of the Iranian tipping point:

Israel Prepares for War on Iran

Also see:

Withdrawal of U.S. Troops From Iraq Highly Suspect

This is a very interesting and thought provoking article - one worth reading. Below are just a few quotes:

Integral to this stated agenda, is the toppling of Iran’s government and its integration into the Wall Street-London “international order.” Efforts to topple Syria’s government by US-backed and now apparently armed opposition groups aim to isolate and even provoke the Islamic Republic into a suitable justification for US or Israeli (or both) retaliation. As reported on extensively, the literal playbook from which these stratagems are drawn is the Fortune 500-funded Brookings Institution’s “Which Path to Persia?” report. In it, it specifically states:

“…it would be far more preferable if the United States could cite an Iranian provocation as justification for the airstrikes before launching them. Clearly, the more outrageous, the more deadly, and the more unprovoked the Iranian action, the better off the United States would be.

Allowing the Israelis to attack by air, and sacrificing US troops on the ground in Iraq as a pretext for greater war is most certainly a possibility. The report continues on by stating the necessity of maintaining a certain level of plausible deniablity regarding the Israeli airstrikes.

Keep an eye on Israel for their attack and the complicit United States waiting to once again “lead from behind.”

The report goes on to say of an American approved Israeli airstrike:

“However, as noted in the previous chapter, the airstrikes themselves are really just the start of this policy. Again, the Iranians would doubtless rebuild their nuclear sites. They would probably retaliate against Israel, and they might retaliate against the United States, too (which might create a pretext for American airstrikes or even an invasion.)”

4. A coming global (totalitarian) government and the necessary decline of America as a world power:

The Indoctrination of American Youth and the Marxist Nature of the Occupy Movement

The ongoing and now extreme indoctrination of Americans, especially young people, through thinly veiled Marxist education in public and private schools as well as the popular mass media has made child’s play of creating a Marxist color revolution with the purpose of putting an all-powerful collectivist totalitarian government into power that will be able to seize property and deny, with even more complete impunity, the God-given natural rights of the citizens and which will still be covertly controlled by the billionaire and trillionaire organized crime networks.

Not to mention the coming world leader.

More below:

One such issue is collectivism itself. Surprise, surprise, anything touching on real empowerment or individualism, truly free markets (no, not corporate cartels), constitutional limits on government, or a truly representative constitutional republic serving the best interests of its citizens (no, not foreign invaders claiming to simply be lacking their documents, foreign bankers, corporate cartels, or semi-secret society members but real citizens) is not allowed.

The elitists have backed many collectivist authoritarian movements, both communist and fascist, throughout history.

The U.S. is just a few months behind the Middle East, where it is already happening:

The middle east color revolutions have been touted as grassroots movements powered by freedom lovers but they have often been covertly controlled by elitist and globalist banking operatives such as George Soros as well as by western intelligence bureaus.

Simply Google Soros color revolutions and the like and see if you are convinced by the evidence.

Indeed. More here:

The same dynamic is occurring within the Occupy Movement. The liberal young adults in this country are the most socialist and marxist indoctrinated bunch of mind controlled useful idiot tools of the elitists that we have ever had (with some notable exceptions who are in the minority)

However, true free market capitalism (as opposed to corporatism) is not the problem. Truly free markets are beneficial to everyone.

Are the Occupy crowd collectivists? Well, the Communist Party U.S.A. has endorsed then and The American Dream website has an excellent article detailing the collectivist leanings and demands of the occupy activists. They want immediate passage of the Dream Act among other attacks on Americans and American sovereignty.

Not only does Obama back the Occupy movement (although he seems to have supported Wall Street interests extensively) but Communist China also supports the Occupy movement.

Between Occupy support for Obama with a very collectivist plank and the endorsement of Obama, Communist China, and the Communist Party U.S.A., it is apparent that the elitist mind control psyop through education to create American collectivist moron fanatics and to import more from third-world hell-holes has born fruit.

Apparently all that was required was a very real but convenient crisis to bring them out of the woodwork.

Also see:

Solid Evidence That Occupy Wall Street Is A Communist Movement...To Bring Down The Free Enterprise System

Is Occupy Wall Street a communist movement? Is it being run by socialists who wish to bring down the free enterprise system? As you will see in this article, the answer to both questions is yes.

But the truth is that when you take a close look at the "organizers", the literature and the stated goals of this movement, you see socialism and communism everywhere.

As our economic system crumbles, an increasing number of Americans are coming out of the woodwork and are proudly declaring that they are socialists or communists.

And to close - Ahmadinejad may actually have this one right:

"U.S. becoming weaker and weaker"

"The United States has become weaker and weaker. Now they are hated in the region," Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in an interview with CNN on Saturday.

Tipping points are everywhere you look right now. And any of them could quite easily trigger the final prophetic wars which lead into or become part of the Tribulation and the rise of the Antichrist.

Which one will actually trigger the final events?

No one knows but there are plenty of options, and each one draws closer by the day.

Maranatha is our key word at this moment.

Jesus told us to look up for His return for His Church as we witness these events and we should look at the news with that thought first and foremost. He also told us to have no fear, as these things had to happen and we would see the early stages.

That is exactly where we find ourselves at this very moment.

We should be looking up; His return is very near.


mary said...

Thanks for your once again encouraging words, and a good reminder "Do not fear". I have to keep reminding myself that as times are getting a little scary, that like you just said, these things must happen if we want our Lord and Saviour Jesus to come back.
I don't know about all of you who come to this blog, but I find myself lately more and more hungry for my Bible, in fact it is the only book I care to read anymore. I cannot seem to get enough of it. I also want to just sit and be quiet in God's presence and enjoy His company.I just long for Him.Just wondering if any of you are also experiencing these feelings. May God bless all of you in the coming weeks, and soon we will all be together.
"Soon and very soon, we are going to see the King......

Caver said...

Wow....and great collection and summation.

One additional little noticed factoid we thought might be important at the Caver house....the HQ location of the Leaders of Hamas. For as long as I can remember, they had their HQ in Damascus. It was kept pretty quiet but a bargaining chip Israel used in the release of their soldier from the evil ones was allowing these leaders and their staff free(safe) passage "OUT" of Damascus and to the "safe" confines of Egypt.

Wonder why? There are many political considerations for these folk to want distance put between themselves and Assad but you have to wonder...are they feeling a little physical exposure in "Damascus". Israel has made it clear what is going to happen to both Lebanon and "Damascus" if a missile reached their major city. Assad says he's going to level that city if anyone attacks any part of Syria.

Interesting, sure 'nuff.

Expected Imminently said...

Q! Anti-Zionist and anti-semetic?

Paul Wilkinson has thoroughly researched this subject. It is the christian supporters of the Arab Palestinians who teach Israel has no rights to the land at all and the Jews have robbed Pali's of their 'homeland'.

They spiritualise Israel and Jerusalem as being the church which are now God's chosen, not Israel (replacement and Covenant theology). Paul Sizer and co., have named ALL who pray for Israel and support the Jews 'Christian Zionists'.

Paul Wilkinson has named these as ‘christian Palestinians’.
By definition and tradition, the term anti-Semitic refers SOLELY to the Jews, the descendants of Isaac, not Ishmael who are the Arabs.

The ‘christian Palestinians’ (the ecumenical Apostate church) are redefining all the terms which refer to the Jews. e.g. they call the Pali issue the 'Holocaust’, and they are copying Hitler who called for a boycott on all Jewish businesses. They say Israel is Apartheid, like South Africa and accuse Israel of Ethnic Cleansing as they re-definie loaded phrases.

They accuse ‘Christian Zionists’ as being anti-Semitic – it is an unbelievable twisting of terms and meanings which is typical of the Emergent Harlot church.

ANYONE who is a Bible believing Christian and interprets the Scripture literally and pray for or support Israel is now labelled a ‘Zionist’.

DrNofog – because of your support as Pro-Israel – YOU - are now classed as a Christian Zionist whether you approve or not, and I don’t like it anymore than you do.

Interestingly the Emergent Harlot STILL teaches Jesus will one day return to earth. Ask them ‘where on the earth will Jesus return to?’ They have no answer because THEY are 'Jerusalem', not Jerusalem! It is all turned inside out and backward – nothing means what it traditionally means – the confusion is palpable and people like us are very dangerous to them. Expect to be challenged and persecuted for supporting prophetic Scripture.

I have tried to alert you all several times before – yes, looking at the political scene and the upheavals of creation are V.important BUT you all need to shake a leg concerning the Harlot of Revelation. Jesus’ first warning was DECEPTION with false christs and prophets. It is well and truly among us.



Caver said...

Sue, Bingo! and Bravo!

It is truly twisted minds that find anyone but Israel and Jews that have a claim to either the full country or Israel or the city of Jerusalem.

The redefining of traditional terms has become very effective for the "wrong headed" thinking the last generation or two. The harlot or apostate church seems only too willing to jump on board. The Bible warned us of this in the last days.

Also, so many seem to want to read and study anything but the actual Word. The latest or greatest book, teaching, or video is fair teaching game but The Word is too rarely used as the teaching tool. Even then, when the actual Word is used, too often the Holy Spirit is not invited to interpret and teach. When read and studied with the Holy Spirit's guidance, the truth stands out and is obvious. The Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 15:18-21) was and is total, complete, unconditional, and a promise and pledge as strong as any made by God. It is unbendable and unmodifiable.

Any knowledge of history since 50 years before Israel's formation, the survival of Israel through all their subsequent wars, and what's happening around Israel today with an eye on Ps 83 and Isiah 17 removes doubt from consideration. BUT...just as the Abrahamic Covenant is being fulfilled, it is "ear tickling" that is being taught.

If ever there was a time, today is the time to figure out exactly what you believe and why you believe it. That knowledge just may be all you have at some point in the near future.


Kem said...

Sue, I would agree wholeheartedly with you on this post. Apostasy and outright heresy are rampant in our churches. Dh and I recently left a church that has fallen into this error in the last 5 years or so. We are now in a wonderful Baptist church that serves meat on Sunday morning rather than marshmallow fluff.

When the book Love Wins was introduced into SS classes...that became the final straw and after a long talk with both the senior pastor and the head of the SS classes, who both refused to budge an inch on their position, we left the friends and church we had loved for the last 15 years.

The good teaching in our new church has renewed a proper appetite for God's word in both of us.

hartdawg said...

What about Saudi arabia? where are they in all this and what role do they play? do u think they're in psalm 83, ezekiel 38/39 or do the sit these out maybe for political or economic reasons? (Which is where i lean towards)

WVBORN56 said...

Kem what is the problem with Love Wins? I think that is the book my daughter an husband recently used it their home Bible study? I glanced at the first chapter it it seemed ok but it has been a while since I looked at. What was I missing?

Kem said...

WVB if it is the book written by Rob Bell titled Love Wins, it is a position that no one will have to endure hell because God loves people too much to make them stay there. His position is that the love of God will not allow Him to punish people forever in hell. Completely against the plain words of our Lord Jesus.
Matt. 5:22
Matt. 5:29
Matt. 5:30
Matt. 10:28
Matt. 18:8
Matt. 23:15
Just a very few passages of which there many.

Kem said...

There is a rather long and excellent article about the book that I've been trying to find but this brief article is helpful in pointing out some of the problems.

WVBORN56 said...

Kem I'm sorry I was thinking of another book. I know Rob Bell is bad news/ bad....the book I was thinking of had a red cover and is an American with oriental roots??? Can someone help me with the name of that book?

WVBORN56 said...

Correction...The author had oriental roots not the book. Scott we really need an edit feature...especially me :)

Also the big problem with Rob Bell is IMO that he is pushing the concept of universalism....everyone eventually goes to Heaven.

Expected Imminently said...

‘For Zion’s Sake’ by Paul Wilkinson p.16-18

Classifying Christian Zionists

It is difficult to pinpoint precisely when the ‘Christian Zionist’ label was first used. In his diary entry for 5th September 1896, Theodor Herzl mentions ‘the Christian Zionist Baron Manteuffel’, whom he later describes as ‘a Christian Zion enthusiast’…

Historians have frequently juggled with label in attempting to classify Gentile interest in the restoration of the Jews. These have included ‘Judeophile’, ‘philo-Semite’, ‘proto-Zionist’, ‘Millenarian Judeophile’ , ‘Humanitarian Zionist’, ‘Protestant Zionist’, ‘British Zionist’ and ‘Restorationist’. They have invariably listed in the same category names such as Brightman, Cromwell, Simeon, Shaftsbury, Disraeli, Eliot and Balfour, creating artificial and misleading genealogies in the process. As the Encyclopaedia of Zionism and Israel has rightly stated, Christian Zionism is ‘a purely Christian affair’ whose goals have ‘remained theological’. Far from being a contradiction in terms, it is the most appropriate label for distinguishing a fundamentally Biblical, Evangelical, and eschatological interest in Israel’s restoration from other expressions of pro-Israel sentiment.

The Church and Israel

Christian Zionists make a clear distinction between Israel and the Church, insisting that the Church is neither the ‘new’, ‘true’, nor spiritual Israel’. According to Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, ‘Israel has never been the Church, is not the Church now, nor will she ever be the Church,’ According to Ramon Bennett, ‘When we speak of Israel’s God or, the God of Israel, we speak of the God of the physical nation of Israel – the Jewish people, not the Church. Israel is not a synonym for the Church. Rob Richards, former U.K. director of the Church’s Ministry among Jewish People (C.M.J.), is even more succinct; ‘Israel is Israel is Israel’.
Christian Zionists believe that God is working in a uniquely separate, albeit interrelated, purpose with Israel and the Church. This distinction is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, which has been described as ‘the basis for the entire covenant program’, the fountainhead of Bible prophecy’, and absolutely pivotal in the entire structure of prophetic truth’. Thus although the Church is comprised of ‘Abrahams Seed’ (Gal.3:29), it does not fulfil ‘the yet unfulfilled provisions of that covenant’ which pertain to the nation of Israel, and which the prophets spoke so much about. Consequently, Paul’s statement that ‘all Israel will be saved’ (Rom.11:26), described by Skevington Wood as a ‘crux exegetica in prophetic interpretation’, speaks not only of the salvation of INDIVIDUAL Jews prior to Christ’s Second Coming, but of the future, NATIONAL salvation of Israel when He returns to reign in Jerusalem. Israel thus exists as a nation OUTSIDE the Church, ‘with all of God’s promises and plans for her remaining in full force’. Christian Zionists make a further important distinction by insisting that the salvation of both the nation and the individual is mediated through the New Covenant of Christ. As Steve Maltz writes ‘there is no fast track to paradise for the chosen people’, since ‘Jews are not saved through Judaism, but through Jesus, like everyone else.’…”


Expected Imminently said...

With all the above in mind, and apart from all conspiracies, I am perfectly happy to now be branded as a Christian Zionist in spite of its mismanagement by certain other Christian Zionists.

Christian Pali’s base their faulty interpretation on the ending of the MOSAIC Covenant. They claim that because it has ended, then so has the Jews right to The Land. Their ignorance of God’s Word has failed to recognise that the eternal promise of the Land of Israel rests NOT on the now defunct Mosaic Covenant which was operational only so long as Israel the wife of Jehovah KEPT to the conditions and worshiped no other gods. Worshiping the Golden Calf before the ‘ink’ was even dry on the Commandments stonework, was an act of spiritual adultery and the contact was ended. Rather, the Land promise is based upon the Abrahamic Covenant which God swore by HIMSELF to keep while Abraham was in a deep sleep as the Covenant was ‘cut’ by God alone. (Gen15)

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him as righteousness AND there were no conditions for him and his seed to break. The New Covenant, ratified on the cross, was also made with the house of Israel and Judah in Jer.31:31 and NOT the Church. The Church reaps the blessings of the eternal Promises, but NOT a physical land. The Church of Jew and Gentile, is Christ’s Body and Bride IN Christ and is not a physical NATION as Israel is.

God keeps His promises!

Anonymous said...

WVBORN56, could be thinking of CRAZY LOVE by Francis Chan?

DrNofog said...

Yes, confounding the language by redefinition, to divide & conquer is 1 of our "Adversary's" oldest ploys in his bag of tricks!

A helpful illustration was given many yrs ago regarding trying to converse with Marxists [or the 'Earth-dwellers' in general], who have been given false definitions, which BTW is absolutely necessary for successful brainwashing.

Using the Marxist's definition of "True Peace" [which they have been taught means: "the absence of struggle against International Communism"], Dr. Stuart Crane described it as being on 2 sets of seemingly parallel railroad tracks that are, in reality, quite divergent and very far apart in their final destinations...

As the discussion progresses and the disconnect in understanding becomes intolerably further apart, one or both parties will eventually shut the discussion down as "hopelessly illogical", even tho the end destination is perfectly logical from each party's starting premise!

Re: "Christian Palestinians"

I, for one, was unaware that the Emergent deceivers were hijacking that term for their own ends, as I'm sure Waterer was too.

My question, and view of the recent misunderstanding is, what started in reality, as a suggestion towards Political Correctness [which Paula & Scott both correctly identified right away] in the use of derogatory terms, was hijacked by the use of quote marks around "Christian", without 1st raising the question of "what do you mean by that term?", and instead, giving an unnecessary history lesson on how the term "Christian" has been frequently hijacked for every imaginable evil of the past & present.

And so what of our truly born-again Arab Christians, who have been born in the ME and raised with the understanding that they are "Palestinians", and now are "Christian Palestinians" [or vice-versa,"Palestinian Christians"] and have not yet been taught the difference, nor the fact that the Rick Warrens have their own twist on the term??

Forgive me if I have misread the situation, but that's all I have been able to make of it, and I think the "shoot 1st, and ask questions later" policy is Ok in a war zone, and it should remain there instead of here.

Anonymous said...

Anybody else hear about this?

hartdawg said...

E.i and dr nofog
if the church is not isreal (we know its not) then please xplain how we are "the isreal of God" and which promises to Abraham the church shares in and which ones we don't. please explain this for my reformed theology friends.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello DrNofog

Your understanding of Marxism and its choice bag of tricks is news to me.

Emergent is (apparently) based upon the Marxist philosophy which runs parallel with philosopher Emmanuelle Kamp’s views – all the way back to Plato! Emergent IS Communism. Mystic Madame Blavatsky ‘prophesised’ that the world would tire of being atheist and return to spiritual mysticism. This is what Emergent is, a union of Marxism, Evolution and Mysticism.

You said “Re: "Christian Palestinians" I, for one, was unaware that the Emergent deceivers were hijacking that term for their own ends

A correction if I may.

The term ‘Christian Palestinians’ has been coined by Paul Wilkerson to describe the Anglican rising against Christian Zionists who they accuse of anti-Semitism and such like.

Arab Christians who live in Israel while recognising Israel’s right to exist are confusingly, also Christian Zionists. Yes, these do exist; I met a few some years ago, although they are now driven from their homes in Bethlehem by Arab Pali’s

It is the Gentile Emergent church that are named ‘Christian Pali’. They support the rights of Pali’s propaganda, just as Gentile Christians Zionists support the Jews and Israel’s right to exist.

SUCH a tangled web they weave in their practise to deceive.

Paul W’s book is clearing the debris for me, as are certain DVD and CD’s. like ‘Prophets who Prophecy Lies and his rebuttal to Stephen Sizer. Invaluable is his attendance at the 10th International SABEEL Conference that was challenging Christian Zionism.

Paul W stood up in the chamber and delivered a word from The Lord saying:

“You hypocrites! You mockers of Jesus Christ! You distorters of the Word of God, the Word of His truth! You are in a house not built by Jesus Christ; you are in a house that is being built by the Antichrist. This has nothing to do with The Lord Jesus Christ. You have been weighed in the balance and you have been found wanting. And those of you who do not know Jesus Christ, the Lord says ‘Come out, come out of her, so that you do not share in her sins and in her plagues’ And Gary [Burg] I appeal to you, I appeal to you to come out Gary. I appeal to you who the Lord has troubled this week, come out! You who shook hands wuth Yasser Arrafat; you who applauded Michael Prior; you are not Christians if you can do these things’.

[In response to shouts of ‘shame’ from delegates, Paul W replied ‘The shame is on you and you will know]

Not surprisingly the word was received with hostility, especially evident when the vast majority in the auditorium stood in one accord and began singing ‘We shall overcome’, the anthem of the civil rights movement.



Expected Imminently said...

Hello Hartdawg

PLEASE get in touch with

The address and other info is in a previous thread. I have been thinking how they could help you. There are no strings and the 'grain' is free.
I am really tired now and I can hardly think. I will try and put some words together tomorrow. But the trouble lays with the faulty, allegorical interpretion of Covenant Theology.

God bless

Scott said...

Hart -

Back to your original question regarding Saudi Arabia..

I don't see them in the Psa 83/ Isa 17 scenario.

However, as far as Gog-MaGog; most authors don't include them, but I have always wondered about a nugget I found in a book by Pentecost ("Prophecy for Today") and he makes an interesting case that Ethiopia and Libya actually referenced the "Arabian Peninsula" based on the account of Moses fleeing from Egypt after slaying the Egyptian. According to Pentecost he did not go into African Ethiopian, but to "Ethiopia" as in their day was located in Arabia. To Quote Pentecost "When Ezekiel spoke of Persia, Ethiopia and Libya, I believe he was speaking if Arab states"......

I have always thought that was interesting and I have always kept that in the back of my mind sounds like Pentecost sees this as an expended group of arab nations, including northern Saudi Arabia.

I don't know - its just something to keep in mind as we see things evolve.

WVBORN56 said...

Thanks Anon, Yes Frances Chan, Crazy Love was the book that my daughter used. I couldn't remember the name. So glad they were not using Rob Bell's book. Her church seems very solid from the times I have visited.

Waterer said...

Dear EI.,No Fog and Hart,

I am greatly being benefitted from these writings of Wilkerson.
ANd yes, NO FOg , I had NO IDEA that this Christian Palestinian term was being used as an anti zionist term. ( Though I am reluctant to use any term with my penchant for getting in trouble with all these special terms.) You rightly ask about the Christian who lives in the West bank and what they would be called. I agree that believers everywhere should be reading the Word and they will see the Lord's hand in what is happening with Israel and for her in His final restoration.I believe that the false teachings coming out of apostacy will be horrible in the tribulation and that the things about God's plan to both judge and restore Israel and the other nations is all still within the incredible mercy and reach of God's sovreignty.TO stand with the root of our faith is essential yet it will be confusing for many when temple sacrifices are started again because that is still not the restoration. It will be at the very end as they see Him coming..
I think too that our commitment to the pure gospel preached first to the Jew and then all the rest of us is more important than it has ever been. Without the power of that message NO ONE is saved.

I have been studying the Abrahamic covenant(s) all afternoon nad I have one question:

Why would Wilkerson say that the New covenant is only for the Jews and not the church? I get that we are not the nation of Israel and have no land as they do, but Hebrews is for all us I think. It uses the OT teachings to show the magnificence and superiority of Jesus to the Old covenant but Chapter 10 and 12 espcially the passage below speak to me of our inclusion in the new covenant and their inclusion into the church of the firstborn.

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Blessings in Him, KR

hartdawg said...

i don't recall hearing that explanation before. i lean towards Saudi being sheba and dedan but ur position may very well be the case.
concerning the discussion between e.i. nofog....what do u think and what are the promises the church shares in and the ones applicable only to isreal?id love you to do a teaching on all this when u get a chance. even dispensationalist get confused on this

Caver said...

In light of the above discussion many might find this series interesting.

Setting the Players and the scene.

Zola Levitt is doing the interviewing. Zola was a Jewish Born Again Believer who is with the Lord now but he interviewed ...

Hanan Ashrawi, who was a spokesperson for the Palestinians at about the time we went into Iraq. She claims to be a Palestinian Christian and, as Zola identifies, is representative of their beliefs. As heard on the interview, she believes in Jesus...only Jesus was a Palestinian...not a Jew. The land is theirs, not the Jews.

Here is the synopsis given at the top of the interview.

"Zola visited Ramallah and interviewed Hanan Ashrawi, considered by some to be the Darth Vader of Palestinian spokespeople. She eloquently articulated the Palestinians’ best arguments for being the true owners of Israel. Subsequent review sessions with two scholarly Arab Christians, journalist Joseph Farah and Professor Ergun Caner, unveil the fallacies in her assertions. This one-hour duo could be the ultimate crash course on credibly and diplomatically asserting Israel’s right to her land."

The two videos.

“The View From ‘Palestine’” with Hanan Ashrawi, Part 1

“The View From ‘Palestine’” with Hanan Ashrawi, Part 2

The final video is of a true Arab Brother in Christ. He recognizes the Abrahamic Covenant and the Jewish people as the rightful owners of all of Israel.

I know the terms can get confusing but one can find themselves with a serious case of hoof-n-mouth syndrome while negotiating this particular minefield.


Anonymous said...

THAT is alot of reading for sure...
I was basically skimming all of


Stocks are NOT DONE yet on the
upside, so we NEED to be patient
and wait. We are still in a RALLY
mode, (2) up of 3 DOWN circle.

I am sure Jesus will come soon.
I am NOT saying that he won't.

But I HIGHLY DOUBT it will be
tommorrow. The stock market
NEEDS to finish this rally.

I will update as soon as (2) up
appears to be finished.

We are already back at 11,809 on
the Dow Industrials.

Probably will go above 12,000
before it's done.

Stephen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Caver said...

Ohoopsie...I boo-booed.

Re-listening I made a mistake when I stated she said Jesus was not a Jew.

What she does say...

She says Jesus was a Palestinian
She says Jesus was a Jew
She further says Jesus became a Christian.

Sorry folk.

WVBORN56 said...

Stephen I can pretty well guarantee the rapture will end the stock market rally.

Check out these Drudge headlines all grouped together.

Bank Predicts Another US Downgrade -- In Just Few Weeks...
EU 'bank failures will crash Wall Street'...
Merkel Takes Aim at Italy...
New euro 'empire' plot by Brussels...

You can see from these headlines the economy is already a house of cards and could collapse at any time and the rapture would be a death nail.

Anonymous said...

Dear 56, you are correct.....

BUT the only problem is that in line with waves of social mood do
ANY of these problems you mentioned
cause a REAL crisis....

Bob Prechter on
said it best. He says: the ingredients for BIG trouble are out
there, and there ARE alot of them...

BUT NOT UNTIL market participants
actually SEE them as a problem and
react to them do they REALLY
become a problem.

An example: Dow goes UP 267
yesterday right ??

How do u explain that Sir ??

Simple, a function of social mood.

WHEN the time comes for a REAL
reaction, then there will be trouble.

BUT not yet.

Stephen >>>>>>>>

Diane said...

Anon and WVBORN56 :and Francis Chan had a new book out this summer :"Erasing Hell: What God said about eternity, and the things we made up." which is a sort of rebuttal against Rob Bell's book.

Wanderer(KR): Thank you for the scripture and comments which you shared. I always thought of the Book of Hebrews as being written for the Jews, but as we are grafted into the family, it is for us adopted children, too. It is so beautifully written, isn't it?

And I agree with WV, as I think the last thing on people's minds at the time of the Rapture will be the stock market . My husband reminded me today that in the Middle Eastern countries, not many will be taken, so they will seem stronger . The US will be so paralyzed that the events portrayed in the movie "Contagion" almost sound like a picnic. Diane

WVBORN56 said...

Stephen you are probably correct on what makes the stock market go up and down. I am pretty clueless on that one. I have to laugh sometime when the media ascribes some dive or climb on some obscure news event. I suppose they could be correct but I am ususally pretty skeptical about anything I read in the media these days. So tell me how can the mood of investors be good in light of all this bad economic news? I'm not buying this climb in the stock market. It seems contrived if that is possible?

DrNofog said...

Just in case y'all dint notice, the World did end yesterday, 10.21.2011, exactly as predicted by Harold Camping, and exactly 5 months after Jesus opened the Books on 05.21.2011 to examine our deeds... [Hmmmmm, why would Jesus, who's omniscient, need to take even a nanosecond, let alone 5 months to examine anything?!? Hmmmmm... a Biblical "mystery", no doubt...]

And all us 'apostates', who dint leave the 'false churches' were left behind to suffer in this alternate, same-old, same-old appearing, never ending reality! OhBummer!!

And on top of it all, the AC has also created a clone image of Harold Camping to remain here wif us to deceive us into thinking that nuffin' happened...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Expected Imminently said...


“E.i and dr nofog
if the church is not isreal (we know its not) then please xplain how we are "the isreal of God" and which promises to Abraham the church shares in and which ones we don't. please explain this for my reformed theology friends”.

God made eternal covenants with Abraham and His descendents forever.

1) The Land
2) The Seed
3) The Promises.

1) The Land is physical (greater) Israel that borders from the River Euphrates to the Mediterranean Sea and to the ‘River of Egypt’ (not the Nile). To date, this has only partially been fulfilled and will see its completion during the 1000 year Messianic Rule. The Church has nothing of this as she is Christ’s Body and Bride and not an earthly nation.
The Seed proceeds from the loins of Abraham, to ISAAC/Israel on down through King DAVID to his Son Jesus of Nazareth through the line of His mother Mary. Jesus is the rightful King over all Israel and will one day rule the whole earth from Jerusalem (with His glorified Bride and the resurrected Tribulation Saints). King David will also rule in his resurrection body the remnant of Israel who survive the Time of Jacob’s Trouble and repopulate the decimated nation of Israel. The Church is IN Christ.
(Believing Gentile survivors repopulate the Gentile nations)

3) The Promises to Israel which includes Salvation is SHARED by the Church with Israel. A.Frucht says the Church are PARTAKERS of the Promises with Israel and not OVERTAKERS. This is the only promise the Church shares with Israel.
The Israel of God – Galatians 6:16

First of all this does not concern a comparison between Israel and the Church! It is between UN-believing Jews and believing Jews in Yeshua as their promised SEED the Messiah.

As many as recalls the wording of vs 12, those who live according to the example of Messiah Yeshua and the NEW creation in vs.14,15, are in stark contrast with those trying to make a good impression through physical circumcision and keeping the law vs.12,13.
The Israel of God refers to the remnant of believing Jews (Romans 11:1,2,7). They are Abraham’s SPIRITUAL descendants ch 3:6-9 because they believe in God and rely upon His Grace exactly as their father Abraham did. His faith in God’s Word was accounted to him as righteousness. The same as his physical descendants and the Gentiles who also believe in God through the New Covenant in His own blood via the Cross.

Aided from the commentary in the 2nd Edition NKJV Study Bible by Thomas Nelson.

It needs to be remembered that the Reformed people are using an allegorical interpretation rather than the literal, Grammatical/historical hermeneutic.
They claim only ONE Covenant of Grace and only ONE chosen people of God. They do not recognise the distinction placed between Israel, the ‘wife’ of Jehovah and the Church/Body who is the ‘bride’ of the Son. I cannot stress enough the huge, huge difference this makes in understanding the views of Reformed/Covenant Theology. DON’T underestimate its importance.

I do hope this is a help, not a hindrance!
God bless you Hart

Scott said...

That is absolutely INCORRECT in what you are saying about Hal Lindsey. He did NOT make a prediction on the timing of the Rapture, I have his book and exact quote at my bedside. I keep it handy because of people making this false statement/accusation. Brother Hal made it VERY clear that he wasn't sate-setting he was merely attempting to show ONE EXAMPLE of what a generation COULD be. Please don't fall into that trap of mis-quoting. When I get a chance I'll come back and post the exact quote.

Scott said...

That's a great help - many thanks.

Hope all is well with you and its so great to see you back! Have been missing you a great deal. God Bless

hartdawg said...

1st off that was a help...a starting point anyways.

2nd i noticed u referenced the nkjv...i believe that to be the most accurate. the textus receptus i believe are the better manuscripts

3rd the reformed friends i have have a unique interpretive approach. they take the bible literally, are pre-mil, take the judgements in revelation literally, but believe the seals to be occuring literally,don't believe in a pre-trib rapture but yet say Jesus could come back tomorrow or in a 100yrs.

hartdawg said...

Typo, they believe the seals to be occurring thru history

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Scott

I’m not too bad thank you; I’m getting there. :)

Of late I have been encouraged to learn that The Lord has been working and raising up a standard against the tide of Apostasy. In particular that the remnant in the U.K. are involved! But it is a shame they teach we can walk away from our Salvation – there is no way the Greek says that and the grammar, context, idiom and plain reading of e.g. Hebrews 6 and 10, the subject matter does NOT refer to Justification let alone the loss of it; but as these verses deal with the very serious issue of leading to the sin unto death; I can let it ride and leave that fault with Jesus to deal with. We all see through a glass darkly.

I am so thankful to see you as a brother dealing with the ‘little foxes’ damaging the fruit on God’s Vine – give them an inch, and they will take a mile! I think that’s what they call ‘damage limitation’!

God bless you in your daily slog. Watch out for the Harlot 8-O

Maranatha NOW!

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Hartdawg

That is good news; I spent most of the night praying for that and kept getting up to check my facts!

Your friends sound mighty confused. Do they ever pray and ask the Lord to help? I am taking this to the Lord even as I write.

Yes! to your Q about the NKJV. I am so pleased with the 2nd edition. My old one is falling apart. I bought this new one for my son, he wouldn't have it so I am being blessed with it instead, so Praise The Lord!

God bless you Hart; I think of you as I am sure you miss your mum. Not much longer now, I am sure of that. Jesus is straining at the bit eager to come for us all.


hartdawg said...

I'm not entirely sure of there escatology....that's just what i gathered. they're one of those "just focus on Jesus not prophecy" churches.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Hartdawg

A few thoughts ‘off the cuff’ to discuss with your friends about the seals being opened now.

What does 666 mean i.e. what is the name of the anti-christ?

What has Elijah done and said?

The two witnesses have caused a world-wide drought for 3 ½ years!?

What have the 144,000 achieved?

Why hasn’t the Temple been rebuilt?

What’s the name of the False Prophet?

Approx 1/3rd of the Bible is prophecy. Ignoring prophecy is like tearing out 1/3rd of the Bible.

Proverbs 30:5 EVERY word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

Matt4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'

2Tim 16:17 ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, AND is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in righteousness, that the man of God may be COMPLETE, thoroughly EQUIPPED for every good work.


“This means that prophecy at its very heart is designed to unfold the beauty and loveliness of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” (John Walvoord)

No wonder they seem confused, they only have 2/3rds of the puzzle to work with. :(


hartdawg said...

The funny thing is i convinced this guys family , using scripture and the very points u brought up, the dispensation pretrib literal position anf that his dad is mistaken

Expected Imminently said...

Its that time of night again but I had to ask.
Are you saying you have succesfully witnessed to the family of your friend but your friend is not yet convinced???

If so, well done and Praise The Lord and also (('!AAUGH'!))

Night-night and God bless x

Waterer said...

Dear Caver,

Thank you for the video tags for Zola Levitt interviews.
They are wonderful.
Do you think it was good that he just introduced the participants as Arab Christians? I found it refreshingly uncomplicated and their answers to Mrs. A. were so sharp and given with intelligence and polite discourse. A really great
and very helpful tutorial.
ALso the framed verse Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, I saw it and thought, "Boy! DId I ever step in it without knowing what on earth people were going to think on our discussion months ago now.
I loved when zOLA ended the interviews with the prophecies of the coming peace that JESUS will bring to that whole region when He reigns from Jerusalem.He is our peace our hope and our salvation.

Per out former disagreement over pc terms, I have backed away ( as I never intended to dictate or boss anyone)from that discussion of which terms we call respectful or truthfully apt.
By way of explanation of what i meant though, these interviews picture it perfectly.
Neither of the Arab Christian experts nor Zola ever said
Oh that is a typical paly thing she is saying or anything that could be seen as disrespectful. They were serious and direct and honest, gave her high marks for candor but not accuracy. I admire this kind of discourse very very much and want to emulate it.
That was at the heart of my bringing the popular terms of the day to the table.
I have backed way far away from that.
I wish Mrs. C would come back and Paula too.
God Bless You and thanks again.

Diane said...

Sorry Waterer , I meant to type your blog name correctly above , you are definitely one who "waters" and NOT a wanderer.

Thanks, Sue and Scott for your timely comments .

I, too, miss Mrs C, and where is Paula ? Diane

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Waterer

If I may be candid and dare to give an opinion - it's that you say no more about it! Every time it is alluded to, it stirs up the dust again that gets into spiritual eyes.

From my own experience elsewhere-
As a mother, I was used to giving instructions on behaviour to my children. I did something similar to you and things flared up. The Lord showed me why; I am a mother, but not to anyone here, so it comes across as being officious to adults. A gentle expression of concern may have been acceptable? Never a lecture on acceptable behaviour!

Mrs C will no doubt return when her circumstances allow –and – maybe when the dust has settled and been blown away. The same with the others; just allow the scab to heal and don’t ‘pick’ at it. :)


Your sister in Jesus

Waterer said...

Dear Sister Sue,

A word of good advice. Thank you.

waterer said...


Funny thing. In church yesterday in the time when we turn and greet one another before sitting down, I turned to a woman who introduced herself as Diane. I threw my arms around her and welcomed her with all my heart. She seemd a bit surprised but happy. But alas it wasn't you...:)

Caver said...

Waterer, thank you! Glad you got as much from them as I did. Zola was, and remains from the grave, a wonderful teacher.

They still have so many of his teachings in the archives of his web site. There's nothing like, at least to me, hearing the meanings of some prophecy from someone who is a Jew and completely understand the nuances from a Jewish and historic Jewish perspective.

Glad you got something from it.!

Mrs. C said...

Sister Waterer/Kathleen,
Thank you for coming forward and honestly stating your name. It is healthy to review what has occurred, and then move on. Perhaps you can now see how the perception of deception occurred. At the same time, it is understandable at your confusion as to why folks use a screen name, rather than their real name. It is to yours and Scotts discretion for example, to use your true names as you both have your own web sites. However, as there are sooo many disturbed people out there now a days, and privacy is at a premium, folks are not comfortable using their real names for many reasons. We can speak to this, as we ourselves have been stalked from web site to web site, and this is by a” Christian” and is disturbing to say the least.

On July 23 in a thread, you had made the following comments under your real name:
Speaking of Israel-“They are a sinful nation too. Some of their enemies are enemies because of torture or hoarding water or parading teenagers with uzis past revered older Arabs with haughtiness and strong sense of entitlement that they deserve Jerusalem. “
”There are unholy practices of both groups . Israel has been in a fight since her rebirth and it was (I think and believe Scriptures teach), a holy gift to become Israel overnight. The dry bones coming together. God is using her to make the Arabs jealous the way HE is using Christians to make Jews jealous”

“I believe Jerusalem belongs to Israel too. In entirety. By grace”

“We have visited with Jewish friends in Israel and our friends in Jordan.
The stories on the ground are different in some ways from what we are hearing in far right American discussions. This is Not the place “
Scott stated: “We shouldn't fear having these kinds of discussions - its both HEALTHY and NECESSARY. If we are appropriate and non-insulting etc. as this discussion has been”

The initial comments were inflammatory, as they are typical of what Hamas and enemies of Israel, says of Israel. They are anti-Israel comments that are commonly stated by the so called “Palestinians” They are not true, unfounded, and are a false witness against Israel. When challenged and engaged in discussion, the statements were not backed up with facts, or Scripture. You then left and then returned under the name “Waterer” posting the following statements, that appeared to reveal the same sediments as previously posted under your real name and sparked another discussion: ( that is your uppercase usage)

10/11- “ BUT I think we should not casually call our President names. Nor do I think we should mock ( palys) when we have Christian Bros and sisters among those people too. If we mean Hamas etc then I think their names should be used. I know the arguments for Israel vs Palestine and I side with Israel but ONLY because of God's call and the work He is still going to do through the Jewish people. “

This statement suggests that you don’t think Israel is right in anything they do, but only support Israel because of her Jewish People. As you know, these statements then sparked a political discussion. You had made the following comments:
Waterer 10/11- “My Mom is a staunch Dem”
“I wanted my Mom to be able to come to this site and others like her”

Comments such as these, gave the impression, as Paula pointed out, that you were attempting to sanitize Scotts blog. Forgive me, but everything is not in the context of politics regarding many things, and perhaps with your family history, it kind of unknowingly creeps in.

Mrs. C said...


This is all good to be out in the open, and for healthy discussion. Sister, I know you had said that this was the first time posting on a blog, and perhaps with your web site, you have not had discussions, or others respectfully disagreeing with you?
You had referenced that you are studying Jewish Believer named Art Katz, his writings etc. You at one point stated he was an “intellect”, and you had difficulty following what he had said. Intellectuals can amass so much “knowledge” that they can become blinded to Him…and become distant without even realizing it. They know all about God, yet they don’t know God. The only Book that should matter, and is going to matter in the very short future, is His Word, the Bible.

Perhaps this difficulty that you are having Sister with understanding this person, is the Holy Spirit preventing you from the path of this person. This gentlemen made a statement in a speech at a convention years ago, that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves as they killed Jesus. This and other derogatory comments against Jewish People that he has made, give people permission to be anti-Semitic He also believes the Church should be prepared to receive the fleeing Jewish People during the Trib.
I am so glad that you listened and viewed the Zola Levitt program. As you could see, the difference in the “Christian Palestinians” between Hanan Ashrawi in the first two videos, who falsely believes in the Palestinian myth, and the third video “The Palestinian Zionist “ with Dr. Naim Khoury who believes in the Gods Covenant with His People, and Israel’s right to Gods land. What an awesome Witness and Brother is Naim! WOW he puts us all to shame! As one of the commentators says, for “Christian Palestinians” it is more of a “cultural kind of Christianity”.

There are many different Jewish Believers out there, and what a stark difference between Art Katz method of Witnessing to the Jewish People with condemnation, and Zola Levitts Witnessing to the same only with the Love of Christ. That I feel, is why perhaps Zolas teaching was easier for you to understand, than Arts.

We are in the Last Days, and time is short, and the enemy knows this. There are many false teachings out there, by “Christians” and “Jewish Believers” a like. A lot of “tickle your ear” stuff that Peter warned us of. Another confirmation of the times we are in. We had better know His Word well for ourselves, and welcome the Holy Spirit to Bless us with discernment and guidance when we study His Word. It wont be long before our awesome Groom comes for us! Let us keep our lamps full in anticipation for the greatest JOY we will ever know!

God Bless!

Mrs. C said...

Sister Sue! BIG HUG
What awesome posts! Dear Sister, the Lord truly Blesses us through your writing!
God Bless You and Keep You!

Diane said...

So wonderful to see you back, Mrs C! I love your posts on this blog, Sister C, and have always looked for them!
I too had some difficulty following Art Katz back in the day when our church's "completed Jewish" elder brought him in to speak. Perhaps the reasoning you gave was the reason why I did not dive into his teachings. I can remember my "older woman" mentor being quite troubled by him.

In addition, I can only say that Kathy (Waterer) is a wonderfully encouraging Bible teacher, ministering life to many women.

Kathy, when we visit your church and I see you, I shall give the code word "Waterer" and then introduce myself. Or perhaps I should not, and then more and more "Dianes" will be blessed by a big hug from you !

Love you both, Diane