Saturday, September 3, 2011

The Gog-MaGog Alliance: Strengthening as Predicted

Over the last several months, we have seen even more movement from the future Gog-MaGog alliance:

First of all, Iran has increased their anti-Israeli rhetoric to much higher levels than seen before, with Ahmadinejad making it perfectly clear that the overall goal of almost everything we see in the Middle East today, is for the purpose of destroying Israel. This point is abundantly clear.

Turkey, only a few brief years ago, had been used by skeptics as an example of a country that couldn't possibly be aligned against Israel (similar to Egypt) - as they had favorable ties to Israel and was seen as a weak ally of Israel. We have witnessed a radical change from that position.

We have witnessed Northern Africa fall into the hands of radical Islam, piece by piece, with the overthrow of Libya as the most recent example.

Russia remains the main force - working behind the scenes, consolidating their various military and economic agreements with Turkey, while they finalize Iran's nuclear ambitions with thousands of Russian workers, scientists and engineers working feverishly to complete the structure needed to produce nuclear weapons.

The coalition is complete.

Today, we see just how far the anti-Israeli sentiment has become in Turkey - now to the point of attempting to draw Israel into war:

Turkey President: Expulsion of Israeli envoy is just the first step

The expulsion of Israel's ambassador over an Israel Defense Forces raid of a Turkish aid flotilla is just one step in many possible measures taken against Israel if it persists in its refusal to apologize for the incident, Turkish President Abduallah Gul said on Friday.

Gul's comments came just hours after Turkish Foreign Minister announced the downscale of diplomatic relations with Jerusalem, saying the move was a direct response to Israel's refusal to apologize for the deaths of nine Turkish nationals in the May 2010 raid.

Speaking to reporters in Istanbul later Friday, Gul said that Israel apparently "did not understand how determined Turkey was to show it has not forgotten the events of the past," adding that Turkey "would always defend our citizens' rights," saying that the "steps announced today were just the first phase."

"We cannot accept the blockade on Gaza. We cannot say that the blockade aligns with international law," he said, adding that the stance taken by the Palmer Commission Report was the author's "personal opinion, one which does not correspond with Turkey's position."

Israel: We hope to mend Turkey ties, but will not apologize for Gaza flotilla

An additional statement released Friday by Israel, this one by a senior source in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office stated that Israel will endeavor to mend frayed ties with the Turkish government and people, but that it will not apologize for the deaths of nine Turkish activists, who it says were only killed by IDF soldiers in self-defense.

"The State of Israel hopes that a way will be found to overcome the disagreement with Turkey, and Israel will continue to make efforts in that regard," it added.

The PMO's announcement also related to Turkey's hinted threat to send naval ships to the sea surrounding Gaza. "Israel assumes that Turkey will respect international laws relating to sailing on the Mediterranean Sea."

UN chief urges Israel, Turkey to mend relations for sake of Middle East peace

United Nations chief Ban Ki-moon on Saturday urged Turkey and Israel to mend their relationship for the good of the Middle East peace process after Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador in the latest fallout over last year's deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla.

In addition to expelling the envoy on Friday, Turkey also cut military ties over Israel's refusal to apologize for the raid, in which nine pro-Palestinian activists were killed, further straining a relationship that had been a cornerstone of regional stability.

"Both countries are very important countries in the region and their improved relationship - normal relationship - will be very important in addressing all the situations in the Middle East, including the Middle East peace process," he said, referring to a negotiated Palestinian-Israeli peace pact.

Also in the region:

Home Front Minister: Sinai-based cell may attack Israel in coming days

Israel has been warned that a terrorist cell linked to the Islamic Jihad and based in the Sinai Peninsula may try to carry out a series of attacks over the coming days, Home Front Minister Matan Vilnai said on Tuesday.

The Israel Defense Forces is on high alert along the Egyptian border anticipating the terrorist group's activities, according to Israel Radio, and has spread out troops particularly in areas where terrorists may be able to cross through easily.

All-time high of 2,000 illegal infiltrators crossed Israel-Egypt border last month

EU states divided on Palestinian statehood bid

European Union governments sought a common approach on Friday to a possible Palestinian bid for statehood at the United Nations this month but deep policy differences looked set to undermine the efforts.

Austria's Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger said one solution could be for the EU to propose its own resolution to the UN on the sensitive issue but other diplomats said privately that several EU capitals opposed the idea.

"So far the positions in the EU are very divergent," Spindelegger told reporters. "I hope that we, as Europe, can send a signal ... and phrase a text which eventually might be brought before the (..) assembly."

With peace talks with Israel frozen, the Palestinians have vowed to seek full UN membership for a state in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital, during the assembly's next General Assembly in September.

Having its difficulties in forging a common view exposed would undermine the EU's efforts to become more influential in international affairs.

Ashton herself said in Sopot that EU capitals still had to time to decide how to act at the UN and said efforts should continue to mediate between Israel and the Palestinians in the meantime.

Analysis: Blair has major, unheralded role in Mideast talks

Britain's Tony Blair is playing a central but largely unheralded role in trying to revive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and perhaps avert a Palestinian push for full UN membership later this month.

As described by Western diplomats, the former British prime minister's effort in part reflects a vacuum left by the United States following the May resignation of former Senator George Mitchell as its special envoy for Middle East peace.

Blair's specific task is to try to win agreement among the so-called Quartet -- the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States -- on a statement that might lure both sides back into peace talks after a gap of nearly a year.

Blair's diplomacy to craft a consensus statement appears to be accelerating. In the past week he quietly met Netanyahu in Jerusalem and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton in Paris.

"September" has become shorthand for the diplomatic train wreck widely forecast this month when the Palestinians may seek full membership at the United Nations for a state of Palestine in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, territories occupied by Israel in a 1967 war.

Just like Sarkozy - Blair is an individual worth watching as he remains a key figure in these so-called 'peace negotiations' in the Middle East.

Asked why the Obama administration may have turned to Blair to do much of the current diplomatic work, he said it reflects in part Blair's track record working with the Palestinians.

"It has something to do with the administration not feeling it has a senior envoy with bandwidth to do this right now," he said. "And it has something to do with not wanting to expose the president politically by seeming to be pressuring Israel."

And in the U.S. - a stark reminder of where we are in history:

How Many Reports of Imminent Economic Collapse Would We Like to Have?

Have you caught any analyses lately, indicating that America is soon likely to suffer severely from worldwide economic insolvency?
An insolvency fomented by vast, monstrous, and interwoven layers of debt to a very corrupt (nonantisemitic term coming) cabal of superwealthy, extremely manipulative, and one would have to say, evil not very nice, central bankers?

Multiple links and video clips are contained within this article - most of us already realize this, but if you need convincing just read a few of the articles given in these links.

Water Wars: The Coming Global Crisis

As if we need another "global crisis".

And lastly, below we see yet another interesting article on "Agenda 21":

UN's Agenda 21 Equals Organized 'Snitching'

America was founded on the idea that private property is sacred. Americans cannot conceive their country without the right to own property. As they go about their daily lives, the United Nations Agenda 21 is methodically chipping away at our country’s solid foundation.

Under the guise of protecting the environment, water conservation, resources, reducing carbon footprint, reducing the use of electricity, smart grid, smart meters, cutting down the use of fossil fuels, separating people from their cars in favor of mass transit, biking and walking within five minutes of residence, returning land to wilderness by moving large rural and urban populations into high rise tenements in green zones, and social justice, the UN is taking over our lives.

UN Agenda 21 marches on in spite of the many revelations that global warming, climate change scare tactics, faulty data, and faux academic research from the University of East Anglia have been debunked.

Questions that we all should be asking:

Do we really need the United Nations to regulate our country, corporations, and citizens in every way into poverty because third world nations think that we are not good stewards of the environment and must thus be controlled and snitched on if we don’t comply? Are U.S. tax dollars involved in this intricate network?

Should United Nations dictate to the rest of the world what economic justice is? I do not wish to receive lectures on respect for diversity from UN totalitarian governments that disrespect women, other religions, and repress minorities through genocide.

Agenda 21 isn't 'theoretical' - it is happening and it is happening now:

As I searched many websites to compile this report, I realize the encroachment of United Nation’s Agenda 21. Look up the words sustainable development, sustainability, smart growth, environmental stewardship, green agenda, and just one site,, and you will see how many organizations already have plans in place to control everything that we do under the UN umbrella of a one-world government.

The UN Global Compact and GRI signed an agreement in May 2010 to align their work in advancing corporate responsibility and transparency. Apparently, more than 5,800 businesses have already signed on to this scheme called a “corporate responsibility platform.” I fail to see how a private corporation is obligated to report anything to the United Nations.

Agenda 21 just represents one more piece of the American foundation that is rapidly eroding. The financial collapse, the extreme cuts proposed for the U.S. military, the inability for America to produce energy while increasing dependence on our enemies, the massive loss in land and home values, the continual loss of religious freedom as growing persecution erodes the open practice of Christianity, the growth of the police state, the loss of farmland, the immigration problems, the growth of Islam both in the White House and in local communities, the ongoing and increasing wars, the earthquakes, etc. One could go much further in this list. America is declining rapidly, exactly as one would expect from biblical prophecy.


Bruce McKerras said...

Prophecy coming true as we watch
Events now unfolding in the Middle East are rapidly bringing closer the apocalyptic scenario as predicted in several prophetic scriptures, mainly Psalm 83, Joel 3:1-3 and Zechariah 12:1-10. As described, the Lord Himself intervenes and delivers Israel from a massive attack from the Islamic confederation. The Messiah Jesus reveals Himself personally and explicitly to the people remaining in Israel. In this incident, those Jews will receive a spirit of compassion and will mourn ‘over Him whom they pierced”. Zech 12:10-14.
Psalm 83 begins by describing a united conspiracy against Israel. Their aim is total annihilation of the Jewish State of Israel, to occupy all the Land and to wipe out any remembrance of them. Although each of the tribal groups mentioned is a historic enemy of Israel and has fought against them on various occasions, there is no record that they ever joined in such an alliance. All of the modern nations who are descendants of the peoples mentioned in Psalm 83, are currently obsessed with an Islamic inspired determination to completely eliminate the Jewish State of Israel.

Psalm 81:13-15 O that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would soon subdue their enemies and turn My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the Lord pretend submission to Him, but their fate will endure forever.
Verse 15 tells of a people who hate God [Y’hovah] when they think in their minds that they submit to Him. The word Muslims, means submitters to God [Allah]
So then, when we read in Psalm 83:2 “For your enemies raise an uproar, those who hate you hold their heads high”, it is saying that the enemies mentioned, are those who believe they submit to God, but in reality are full of religious pride and are in fact haters of the true God.

Psalm 83:18 So let it be known that You, whose name is Y’hovah are alone the Most High over all the earth.
The reason that God will make Israel to be so powerfully victorious in this coming war, is to witness to all unbelievers, especially the Ishmaelite peoples, who will then recognise the true religion and Islam will be discredited.

The writer of Psalm 83, the prophet Asaph, prays that Israel’s current enemies will be just as soundly defeated as were the Midianites, etc, when their armies were scattered and their leaders executed. When this prayer is answered, Israel will be a much bigger country, including all the area given by God to Abraham.

There will be a terrible loss of life, as well as large numbers of refugees, who will flee from all the Mid east countries. But a holy remnant will survive in Jerusalem. After the Land is cleaned and regenerated, then the true descendants of Jacob [Israel] will be motivated to emigrate to the New Israel. There, they will be an example to the world of how all should live and 144,000 of them will go out to all peoples and preach the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19.

Mrs. C said...

Welcome Bruce :)
Forigive me, but I have a feeling that you've read the book by Bill Salus in which promotes his "theory" or "ideas",right?
God Bless!

Caver said...

Hi Bruce, welcome to the family.

It sounds like you're getting a lot of scripture and conjecture kind of intertwined and presenting it all as fact there.

Kind of a good idea to separate the two and present it as such, don't you think? Scripture is His word. Conjecture is our interpretation or belief of what Scripture actually says. A new believer could seriously be lead astray if incorrect in any respect

By the way,are you pre-trib or mid-trib?

Again, welcome to the family here!

Scott said...


I'm just curious - is there anything in the first post above that you disagree with?
I read over it and I thought he was consistent with most of our current thinking on psa 83 etc - what did I miss?
(my speedreading sometimes gets me in trouble:)

Caver said...

Hi Scott,

Well, to start in the first paragraph if I am reading this right...

Bruce writes..

"Events now unfolding in the Middle East are rapidly bringing closer the apocalyptic scenario as predicted in several prophetic scriptures, mainly Psalm 83, Joel 3:1-3 and Zechariah 12:1-10. As described, the Lord Himself intervenes and delivers Israel from a massive attack from the Islamic confederation. The Messiah Jesus reveals Himself personally and explicitly to the people remaining in Israel. In this incident, those Jews will receive a spirit of compassion and will mourn ‘over Him whom they pierced”. Zech 12:10-14. "

It is God or LORD, that begins to intervene in Isiah 17 and fully turns His face to Israel in the following war. The post places Jesus, not God, into the middle of Psm 83 when, per scripture, Jesus only makes His glorious appearance at the end of the Trib....not the middle of these wars.

Nowhere, that I remember, does God tell us Israel wins huge amounts of land in Isiah 17. They get parts of Jordan for sure, I fail to see other areas of land they "win".

Israel needs God's help, even to survive Isiah 17 the way I read it, and they are burning wood at the end.....not the sign to me they overwhelmingly defeated their enemy and are thriving.

This entire post, to my mind, attempts to combine Isiah 17, Ezekeil, mid trib and Great Trib.

Scott said...

ahhhhhhh....OK - good pick up, I hadn't noticed that at first read. I think I had only had one cup of coffee at that reading - I need at least 3 for the neurons to get fired up :)

Caver said...


Scott's World:
"...I had only had one CUP of coffee at that..."

Caver's World:
"...I had only had one POT of coffee at that..."

Your way is cheaper. Coffee is getting expensive and the sheetrock and ceiling repair work is downright ruinous......

WVBORN56 said...

Welcome Bruce....

UN's Agenda 21...grrrrrrrrr!

Bruce n Jan said...

Thanks for your welcomes.
Caver, I am a NO rapture! I believe that we, that is everyone is to be tested and refined here on earth. See John 18:15.
Also you need to be aware that the first, so called war in the M.E. is seperate from the later Gog attack.
Please look at my Bible study guide-

Bruce n Jan said...

Sorry, typo, should be John 17:15
BTW, that photo is my wife and I in Jerusalem. We currently live in Amman, Jordan.

Caver said...

Hi Bruce, and yes....we're all in agreement on the number of wars I believe.

The prayer of Psm 83 is answered by the war of Is 17 resulting in the surviving members of the nations to flee far off.

This is followed by Gog-Magog which gathers up those that have fled from far off and joins with specific other nations for the invasion through the mountains.

As far as your view of NO rapture, well, thank you greatly for clarifying that. :hat It does bring a bit of clarity to a few points.

I certainly don't agree with you but since its not a salvation issue I will just end with again welcoming you to the little community here. Its a great place to fellowship and watch His prophetic word become reality on a daily basis.

Scott said...

No rapture?

Just curious. What do you think 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:50 is referring to?

Where is the Church seen in Rev 6-18?

Why do we have to suffer God's wrath (not Man's wrath - but God's wrath) when Jesus promised that He did that on the cross?

When does the Bema Judgment take place in your 'structure'?

Where and when is Jesus taking His people as referenced in John 14?

This will just get us started :)

God Bless

I'm not trying to be cute, I'm really interested in how you see these scriptures.

Bruce n Jan said...

Thanks Scott, here are my answers;
1/ Thess 4:16 addressed below.
2Cor 15:50-54 will happen at the Great White Throne judgement.
2/ There is no Rev 6:18, but the 6th seal is the next propesied event, the Lord's Day of vengeance.
3/ The righteous won't suffer
4/ At the end of the Millennium.
5/ To New Israel - on earth.
Be prepared – the Scouts motto

Most of us are probably not as interested as we should be in end times issues. Perhaps we have no intention of changing our views before the Return of Jesus, or death takes us away from it all. If it turns out that we die before Christ returns, then what is the difference? Would you really want to stand in His presence and admit you were not concerned about the truths taught in His Word? But what if you are still here during the Great Tribulation? It is clear, from the Bible, that God does want His servants to be aware of His plans and be prepared, physically and spiritually for what must come.
Titus 2:13 tells us what we are waiting for: the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. His coming will be seen by all, accompanied by a trumpet blast heard around the world. Those who say that there will be a “secret coming” before that event, a “rapture” have no Biblical justification for such a thing to happen. There will be a group, the elect, who will be taken to a place of safety, on earth, during the 3½ year Tribulation period. Revelation 12:6.
The Church will still be on earth when Jesus returns. Otherwise, we would not need to be exhorted to continue with righteous attitudes and activities until He comes.2Timothy 4:1-8, 1 Peter 1:13 & 4:12-13 & 5:1-4, 1 Corinthians 4:5, James 5:7-8, 1 Thess. 3:13, Philip. 1:9-11.

A Scripture passage often pointed to as a “rapture” text is 1 Thess. 4:13-18. But that is clearly about the Return of Jesus. Paul describes those in Jerusalem ‘rising to meet Him in the air’ Firstly, this is simply a meeting, as He descends, and secondly this may be an allegory, a spiritual rising, as those people say “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of Y’hovah! “
Emphasis on looking for a supposed secret coming of Christ to get His church and take it to heaven before the Tribulation, contradicts the writings of the Apostles and the early church fathers. John 18:15 I do not pray that You take them out of this world, but that You protect them from the evil one.
Any new believer, just reading the Bible, without the ‘benefit’ of church teaching and dogma, would read that Jesus promised to Return to the world in glory, accompanied by His angels – Matthew 16:27. He will come after a period of great suffering – Matt. 24:21-30. He will gather His chosen ones then, to live and reign on earth. Matt. 24:31, 2 Thess. 2:1.
It hardly seems possible for anyone to arrive at a rapture, pre, mid or post Tribulation, by independent study of the Scriptures. If this teaching is not set out clearly in the Bible, how did it originate? Investigation into the history of the rapture, indicates that it began in Scotland in the early 1800’s, with the visions of Margaret McDonald and was later promoted in England by Edward Irving, J. Darby and others.
As we are now very close to the time when God will act on earth in order to fulfil His plans for His creation, careful study of Bible prophecy can inform us of end time events, even some timing is given to us. Don’t be one who is ignorant of coming events or worse still, have an apathetic attitude. What will Jesus say to you?
1 Corinthians 1:7-9 There is indeed no single gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for our Lord, Jesus Christ to reveal himself. He will keep you firm to the end without reproach until that Day. It is God Himself who called you to share in the life of His Son and God keeps faith.

Jake said...

Dear Bruce and Jane

Good to have you with us.

I think Scott was referring to CHAPTERS 6 to 18 of Revelation - not Rev 6:18 which you correctly pointed out does not exist.

I am intrigued and interested in the way you responded.

Scott asked you specific questions, but as far as I can tell you have not actually answered those questions with sufficient evidence for your answers apart from question 1. I was wondering why.

Of course, we could all give replies re the scripture passages you quoted and replies against the reasons you gave, but it would take forever to explain. It would result in too much of our time on this specific topic and steer too much away from the purpose of this blog.

Most of us are already aware of post trib and no rapture beliefs and the verses (and allegorising or spiritualising)they use which tend to be out of context, anyway, considering the overview teaching of the whole bible

I consider having too long a debate on this (which inevitably would happen) a fruitless task because too many people are unwilling to change their position on their eschatological belief, anyway. It only leads to strife between believers.

Having said this, for those who want to respond, I think it may be less confusing if I rewrite the questions/answers in a different format to make it easier to read.

Question 1 from Scott:
What do you think 1 Thess 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:50 is referring to?

Answer 1 from B & J
Thess 4:16 addressed in longer detail above.
1Cor 15:50-54 will happen at the Great White Throne judgement.

Question 2 from Scott:
Where is the Church seen in Rev 6-18?

Answer 2 from B & J
There is no Rev 6:18, but the 6th seal is the next prophesied event, the Lord's Day of vengeance.

Question 3 From Scott:
Why do we have to suffer God's wrath (not Man's wrath - but God's wrath) when Jesus promised that He did that on the cross?

Answer 3 from B & J
The righteous won't suffer

Question 4 from Scott:
When does the Bema Judgment take place in your 'structure'?

Answer 4 from B & J
At the end of the Millennium.

Question 5 from Scott:
Where and when is Jesus taking His people as referenced in John 14?

Answer 5 from B & J:
To New Israel - on earth.
Be prepared – the Scouts motto

Caver said...

Hi Jake and Bruce,

Jake, excellent certainly puts it into perspective.

May I add one other comment....Bruce says the rapture is a relatively new view.....

Bruce said....
"...Investigation into the history of the rapture, indicates that it began in Scotland in the early 1800’s, with the visions of Margaret McDonald ..."

This is not correct. There is recorded discussion of the rapture as early as the 1st century I believe. This teaching later fell out of favor for several hundred years and was revived in the 1800s. Much like the great lie of "Replacement Theology" became prominent for a period of time and later was discredited in favor of sound scripture and teaching.

Study after study has proven beyond any doubt that Ms. McDonald is NOT the originator.

:tip hat

Mrs. C said...

Brother Bruce, :)
My goodness, where do we start :)
Forgive me, but your comments sound very similar to Replacement Theology. Are you in Jordan because you believe yourself to be part of the Remnant that flees to Petra at mid trib?
Way too much to discuss here, and I have a full day of work ahead, so Ill just touch on a few points.
Who is it that you believe the "elect" is? Jesus is speaking very clearly, to the Jewish Believers during the Trib. That is why He warns them , for example, at the revealing of the Great Trib, that they better hope its not a Sabbath day.
Jesus was Jewish, and still is Jewish, that did not change. He didn’t rise to Heaven and become a “Christian”. A Sabbath day, is only applicable to Jews, who are under Law on the Sabbath.
Matthew 24:20
20.But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Those that are protected by God Himself, are clearly the Jewish Believers that escape the second half of the Tribulation, that Jesus refers to as the Great Tribulation. These are not “Christians”. We know this from Gods Word telling us this in Rev. 12:14. The Woman is clearly Israel, and those protected are clearly Jewish Believers.
Revelation 12:14
14.And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:17
17.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Those that say to Jesus “Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord”, will be Jewish Believers, and has nothing to do with Christians. Psalm 118:26, is a very familiar Prayer for the Jewish people, they know it well. It is the Jewish Believers that will say to Jesus, their Messiah “Blessed be He that cometh in the name of the Lord”. He clearly tells us this in His own Words.
Luke 13:35
35.Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Jesus comes to Petra to rescue the Jewish Remnant Believers Himself!, they will say to Him “Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord”. And Jesus will mean business when He comes. There will be no quarter given, no mercy shown.
Isaiah 63:1-6
1.Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2.Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3.I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4.For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6.And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Mrs. C said...

In conclusion, it is not “Christians” that are being protected in Petra, but rather the Mid-Trib fleeing Jewish Believers. No where does Gods Word say it is “Christians” in Petra at all! He makes that very clear in Rev.12:17. In addition, just going on your “theory”, IF there were any Christians hiding out in Jordan, all they would have to do is count the number of days, and they would know exactly when Jesus’s Second Coming would be. We know this is not possible, because Jesus Himself tells us this. Matthew 25:13
Jesus is not coming for a beat up Bride, and He tells us in Revelation 3:10 that he will keep us from Gods Wrath.
Revelation 3:10
10.Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Brother, please know that I say this to you in the Love of Jesus. As you say you live in Jordan, please Brother know that the next war to come, will indeed involve Jordan, and many other nations surrounding Israel. The Isaiah 17 war appears to be approaching quickly, and Jordan will indeed be taken down as Gods Word tells us in Isaiah 17:2. Please know Brother, that this will not be the beginning of the Trib, and please keep in mind a place to seek safety and shelter.
God Bless! :)

Paula said...

Caver, I'm glad you responded to the old "MacDonald/Darby/Schofield did it" line with simply "This is not correct." I'd have been much more... verbose.

But do you all think we need a Pre-trib Q and A document we could just point people to instead of having to reinvent the wheel every time somebody starts this up again? We could always put a Thomas Ice link in the sidebar or something, or assemble our own, but it needs to be concise yet thorough.

Scott said...

Goodness - are people REALLY still using the Macdonald/Darby argument?


Because when I see this I immediately tune out. Its so lame and so ancient and has been disproven over and over and over yet I see see it?


I'll come back to this - have to update today's news...

Scott said...

OK, I can't resist - I;ll do it now..

1 Darby etc...As I have stated many times and as proven historically

- Darby's writings were BEFORE Macdonald's visions even happened

- The ONLY time Darby mentioned Macdonald in his writings was to express skepticism at her use of 'tongues' - hardly an endorsement

- If anyone would take the TIME to read Macdonalds writings about her visions, it is clear that she would have been referencing a POST-Trib rapture, not a pre-trib rapture - that is crystal clear if one would simply read her actual writings.

This is the ULTIMATE straw-man argument.

Not to mention the fact that the Rapture WAS taught to the Church before Darby - well before many times., There is extensive proof of this ---

In fact there is proof of all of the above, so why do the posties STILL cling to these disproved arguments?

Is it because they don't have anything else?


Jake said...

Good idea Paula. I was thinking the same. If thats ok with you Scott?

Scott. do you have something already written (or does somebody else) that you could position as an icon in the sidebar?

Scott said...

Secondly - "Statements" without biblical references don't interest me very much. Anyone can make a statement

You said "The church will still be here when Jesus returns" --- UH - scriptures please...

NO - in fact, the CHurch is clearly shown in heaven just before the 2nd coming - Revelation 19 makes this clear

Rev 19:6-9 shows the Church in heaven........Show me the scriptures which show the Church here on earth - just one will suffice :)

Bema takes place at the end of Mill? Really?

Can you point out that scripture? (rather than your statement - again, anyone can simply make a statement)

Scott said...

You stated that the Church will be here during the Tribulation - but "the righteous won't suffer"....IOW, you believe the church will be here but protected.

What does Rev 3:10 mean to you?

Lets look:

"I will also keep you from THE HOUR of trial that is going to come...."

That means we won't be here during that very TIME PERIOD>...There is NOTHING in the scriptures which state that we will be here, but protected....In fact this scripture argues against.

Where is your scripture for your POV?

Scott said...

If there is a post trib rapture, can you show me this description in the scriptures ? Rev 19 - which is a detailed view of the 2nd coming doesn't mention such. Nor do we see this in Jesus description in Matt 24...Where is the description of this post-trib rapture? I can't find it....

John 14.....Jesus is taking His people to some place on earth - and you think that some place on earth is that special place that Jesus has prepared for His bride?

Can you show me scriptures which detail this?

Are you familiar with the wedding analogy to the ancient Jewish wedding customs?

You stated that one of your 'proofs' is the 'fact' that we are told to maintain 'righteous activities and attitudes until He comes" as pertaining to the 2nd coming?

Where do you get that? This is a reference to doing such activities until the RAPTURE coming.

Scott said...

As far as 1 Thess 4.....You are trying to make allegory about that?

So, when do you get to pick and choose when to use allegory vs "literal"?

That is one amusing aspect of post-tribbers...You guys select out when you decide to conveniently use allegory vs literal. It isn't a very consistent approach IMO.


In Daniel 9 - Daniel was clearly and plainly told that the 490 years would pertain to "your people and your holy city"....Where do you see the CHurch there?

The Church wasn't present in the first 483 years of this 490 year period - where is there any evidence that the last 7 years would "overlap" between the CHurch and the NOI?

Can you show me an example of any prophecy that was intended to be understood as allegory?

Caver said...


Scott asked....
"... so why do the posties STILL cling to these disproved arguments?..."

1. To keep Scott mentally limber
2. To keep Scott's typing fingers exercised.
3. To gauge Scott's "...patience level..." today

Ok, now Caver runs back to his secret cave to escape the after effects ......

Scott said...

I disagree with another premise, where you say that we can't really know (pre vs post vs mid etc).

We can clearly know...I'll restate

1. 1 Thess 4 is CLEARLY different from the 2nd coming scriptures.

The 2nd coming scriptures describe Jesus coming to earth and staying here for 1000 years (Rev 19, 20; Zech 14, Matt 24)

The Rapture explains a 'gathering up' NOT on earth but in the clouds and to New Jerusalem (1 Thess 4, John 14)

That represents a STARK contrast between the two comings....

There is NO MENTION of the CHurch in Rev 6-18.....None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Why not? We get detailed descriptions of every group - but no church mentioned?

ANd then we see the Church again, in heaven, in Rev 19...Hmmm...

1 Thess 1:10, Rev 3:10 and 1 Thess 5:9 CLEARLY show the Church as NOT being here to experience God's wrath :

"For God did not appoint us to suffer this wrath"

"To wait for his Son from heaven, whom, he raised form the dead, Jesus - WHO RESCUES US FROM THE COMING WRATH"

"I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole earth."

Scott said...

One more thing (to repeat) and I am not trying to be inflammatory or anything like that - just stating facts.

Whenever I start to hear the M Macdonald argument, I immediately lose interest in the 'debate' for the reasons stated.

- It shows that the individual hasn't done a lot of work in this area - as repeating this well-disproven case reveals, to me, someone who doesn't dig deep into these matters. I really mean that.

1-2 hours of research reveals the vast problems with this 'argument'....I don't understand why folks still cling to this argument in the face o it having been disproven.

Not only that - so what? EVEN if M Mac was a legitimate argument (which it isn't) - So what ifsome guy names Darby wrote about it and based it on her visions? That alone would disprove the rapture in its entirety? REALLY?

How so?

This is such a red-herring and a long lost argument.
When I see it, I sigh deeply and move on....But today for some reason I felt compelled to answer :)

We already know of the many pre-trib writings well before this era.

Scott said...

Caver LOL....Its just that the pertinent questions RARELY get answered - the use of "straw-man" arguments...The lack of scriptures as contrasted with unbased "declarations" which are not scripture based such as "The church will be here at Jesus 2nd coming"...Huh? There aren't ANY scriptures which reveal this - but only a blanket statement. These thngs are SO common and Ive seen these 'arguments' a thousand times over the years and they don't hold a drop of water

Mrs. C said...

The Tribulation Period is not intended to purify the Church. Only the blood of Christ can wash us clean of the iniquity and sin.

ann marie said...

I was reading this interesting article on
Biblical proof of pre-trib rapture

Scott said...

AMEN Mrs C !!

Scott said...


The two audio presentations on the Rapture of the Church in the upper right hand corner of this site explains the basis of the pre-trib rapture.

Scott said...

May I suggest the following reading materials which may enlighten:

1. Maranatha, Our Lord Comes" by R. Showers
and the following links may provide some study assistance:

The Rapture and the Second Coming: An Important Distinction

Examining an Ancient Pre-Tribulation Rapture Statement

Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist

Perhaps Today: The Imminent Coming Of Christ

Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming

Scott said...

More problems with a post-trib or mid-trib rapture:

- There are a VAST array of scriptures pointing to the "imminent" return of Jesus ("imminent" meaning that it could occur at ANY time.....This can ONLY point to a pre-trib rapture. Otherwise, the entire doctrine of imminency is destroyed, as in that scenario (the post or mid trib scenario) there is NO IMMINENCY.

How does a post-tribber reconcile that?


With a post trib rapture - when does the "wedding" take place?

We know that the Church is also known as the "Bride" of Christ.

Revelation 19 clearly shows the "Bride" as being in Heaven (Rev 19:6-9)....If the Bride is already in heaven, preparing for the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, how can they also be on earth?

Where are the descriptions of the Church being "protected" during the Tribulation era found in the Bible?

Who were the 12 elders, seen with the "Victors crown" (Rev 4) if NOT a representation of the Church?

Who would have received judgment and have already been rewarded for works on earth (at that point in chronology) if not the Church? IOW - who would have rec'd the "victors crowns" before the Tribulation even begins?

I could go on an on, but I'll stop here :)

Scott said...

One more point....The beauty of the Pre-Trib rapture, is the fact that it answers ALL of these questions, and there are no "gaps" that have to be 'explained away'...No scriptural gymnastics are required.

One can take a literal view with the pre-trib doctrine, and with such - the scriptures have complete consistency and complete harmony...

This doesn't exist with any other view.

Paula said...


The audio of course is excellent but a lot of people want text to read, for one reason or another. Do you have transcripts?

Also, would it be possible to have a section on the sidebar for those links you just posted? What I think will be the easiest for the most people is a handy index like that, which won't be lost in the flow of the blog.

Scott said...


I have the powerpoint 'slides' that go with the audio's...I have been considering posting those...

Paula said...

Ya know, Scott, if you wanted a "static" site separate from the blog for your audio/video and text documents, I could make that happen...

And ifn you wanted such a site with your own domain name, I'd pay for it myself and customize it, as some token of appreciation and support. Busy with a couple projects right now but should have them done in a week or so.

Scott said...

Many thanks for the kind offer.....Let me dig around and see if I can even find those corresponding PP presentations....Or consider some other alternatives -

Scott said...

Sorry if I came across as harsh in these descriptions and explanations - not my intent....I have been having these same discussions for the better part if 25 years and I can let frustrations leak out.

The problem is - I haven't, in that period of ~ 3 decades ever received reasonable responses to these scriptural arguments and continue to see the same "points" by post-and mid- trbbers for all those years. I have to wonder why the scriptures don't make the points as they seem clear and self-explanatory to me. Oh well.

DrNofog said...

Scott unloads a full broadside and dusts his hands off thinking "That'll keep 'em busy for a while bailing, as they take on water..."

Welcome Bruce n Jan!

As you can see, and contrary to what others say about us, we do have a lot of fun over here.

It takes a little bit of doing, but if we tweak him up just right, every now and then, we'll gain some interesting insight into the man of mystery behind the 'alias' Scott...

DrNofog said...

That the early church was Pre-Trib Rapture is really, historically, beyond dispute, but the prophecy of Daniel's 'Key' to the End Times takes precedent. So, along comes Augustine, who was briefly into chiliasm 'til his antisemitism got the best of him, so he found a quick fix for writing the Jews outta the picture.

The allegorical amill concoction has been THE major stumbling block for centuries til God began revealing that THE literal Israel had to be back in the land & Russia had to become a nation instead of mongol hoards running around all willy-nilly & to become a world power on top of it all!

So here we are today... I think 'Scott' summed it up quite well, so I'll leave it at that, except to point out that the allegorical method is quite ancient; Genesis 3:1 I think it is:
"Did God really say that??"

Scott said...

DrNo.....I said a few days ago that a lot of the prophetic things that we watch - in terms of fine details, aren't worth arguing about or, with me, not really worth 'debating'...

But when it comes to pre-trib rapture, end of this age, Jesus imminent return, and some 'big-ticket' items like that, I believe they are worth 'robust discussion'...:)

These things are very important IMO - and should be based on SCRIPTURE and scripture alone, and nothing else.

With that in mind (see, you got me started back up again :), as I said, I have seen these same 'arguments' for almost 30 years and I see people like you and continue to point out he vast array of scriptures pointing to a pre-trib rapture, yet these get ignored and the strawmen arguments get perpetuated over and over and over and over and over and over --- in the face of all scripture and all logic.

I really don't understand it....Macpherson's "big book" that allegedly shot down the pre-trib rapture spent > 50% on the Macdonald thing....To me, this is both disingenuous and overtly false. This has been proven over and over....Similarly, with the argument that "the early church didn't discuss was started by Darby" --- makes me want to jump off the roof!

Again...Something disproven again and again and again - yet it is guaranteed to come up - Every single time.

ANd lastly - I have never ever had them discuss every scripture that pertains to a pre-trb rapture. They never get answered. Never. Rather - we see the same old tired 'arguments'....

It can become, at times, somewhat frustrating

Expected Imminently said...

Margaret MacDonald false prophecy.

Claimed by Dave MacPherson to have been behind J.N. Darby’s so called ‘theory’ of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
What follows is the version of Margaret Macdonald's revelation as published in ‘The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets’ in the ‘Catholic Apostolic Church’(1861).

Part 1.

MARGARET'S REVELATION "It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is.
'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.


Expected Imminently said...

I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.


Expected Imminently said...


When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''

If you have managed to read through this tedious tome, you will see there is NO mention of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture as claimed by MacPherson.

Every blessing

Scott said...

The best I can gather, from her vision - is seeing the Church living on earth at the same time as the 'trials' and the existence of the AC...So if ANYTHING regarding the rapture was in view, by definition, it would have to be a post-trib, not a pre trib.....And thats a stretch. But it certainly doesn't reveal ANYTHING about a pre-trib rapture.

GG said...

Hi Sue & Mrs. C-

Just bringing you both close in my heart and mind all the while giving you a much needed hug. ((((. BIG HUGS ))). ,May this week grant you much peace, safety and wisdom in all you must face. I am praying for continued renewed strength and a continually restored mind and claim you are fully restored in the sweet name of Jesus!

God Blless!!

Expected Imminently said...

Hello GG

(((((((Humungus hug back)))))))

You are so kind and gracious; I DO appreciate you, your comments and your loving prayers.

Please know what a difference they really make.

I nearly missed this and I would hate to ignore you - although it may seem that I do when I am lagging behind when Scott keeps us SO busy, bless His heart.

Hope and pray you are getting to know more and more of God's precious Word, AND applying it to all of life's situations. This is the 'work' of our Faith He desires from us. (Faith without 'works' is dead James 2:18,20,26)

Love and blessings sweetheart

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Scott

Finally I have read this thread in it's entirety!
That was mighty impressive m'Lord;
I could nigh feel the ground shake beneath me feet as the Holy Spirit swept by like a billowing sail.

All neatly interjected by Caver and DrNofog; I am sure they had their mouths open in admiration as I did. I can imagine the effect you would stir up if you ever have more time to devote!

Great ideas from Paula; please pray about it - I have always thought the same about 're-inventing the wheel'and what a benefit it would be to link to your own 'stuff' similar to the side-bar. e.g. MM's 'prophecy' would be a useful addition. If Paula is willing and able to take that load and run with it ... so long as YOU don't have more on your shoulders.

God is blessing you Scott, it's exciting to behold!

Otherwise, Maranatha NOW!

Anonymous said...

I've got something for you prophecy fans. It has the title of "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes" & I found it on the "End Times Passover" blog (hosted by Joe Ortiz) on Sep. 4th. Google "Scholars Weigh My Research" to see how leading scholars have viewed MacPherson's years of research in Britain etc. He is the only historian I know of who has dedicated more than 40 years to examining the exact beginnings of the pretrib doctrine. Lord bless you. Sarah

Anonymous said...

(Here is part of the non-copyrighted item Sarah cited. Reactions? Amanda)


by Dave MacPherson

To become a PH.D (Pretrib History Distorter) or a D.D. (Doctrinal Deviant), do the following:


Wrong and wrong.

Wrong and wrong again.

This "straw man" assumption by Jack Kinsella ("Is Dispensationalism a Recent Doctrine?," 8/11/11) is totally missing from all genuine scholarship, and Jack can't find her even mentioning that long word!

Longtime No. 1 pretrib rapture leader John Walvoord's "Rapture Question" proves (p. 105f) that Margaret's view (that only PART of the Church gets raptured) has long been a widely held form of the PREtrib view - and Charles Ryrie's 1981 "rapture" book and other pretrib works have purposely ignored Walvoord!
Margaret's 1830 "revelation" saw "the one taken [before Antichrist's revealing] and the other left." The PART of the Church left on earth after the rapture was viewed by her collectively as "the Church" - the same wording used in the same way by later partial rapturists! (Google "X-Raying Margaret" and "Edward Irving is Unnerving.")

Darby wasn't original on any crucial aspect of that system including the "church/Israel dichotomy," the church being absent from a future "Jewish" tribulation, the "Jewish" book of Matthew, the "literal method," the "Gentile parenthesis," the "ruin of the church," and especially the "pretribulation rapture." Margaret was the first to "discover" pretrib in the Bible and she shared her novel interpretation only privately with others (spring of 1830). Rev. Edward Irving and his followers, who credited Margaret, were the first to publicly teach it (September of 1830) in the Irvingite journal "The Morning Watch." Darby didn't clearly express pretrib until 1839 - and when he did he plagiarized the exact same Rev. 12 "man child caught up" argument Irving had publicly used eight years earlier!

But if you do, copy it like Thomas Ice who in 1989 copied it so quickly he somehow omitted a total of 49 words from different sentences - the same 49 words that Tim LaHaye left behind in his 1992 book "No Fear of the Storm"! LaHaye (pp. 168, 207) also came up with two different titles for Lacunza's famous old book - neither one correct! (Google "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" (which reveals that Ice's "Ph.D" was issued by a school that was fined by the state of Texas for illegally issuing degrees!), "Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice," and "LaHaye's Temperament."

(8) DON'T LET YOURSELF QUOTE ACTS 2:34-35, ACTS 3:21, OR I THESS. 1:7-8.
Why? They prove that Christ can't leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture!