Saturday, April 14, 2012

Human Government: Moving Towards Totalitarianism - Preparing For The Tribulation

As stated before, the Tribulation won't begin with a "bang", but will represent the last stages of a generational build-up. Certainly the Tribulation will begin with a specific, singular event ("He will confirm a covenant with many" Daniel 9:27) but the massive, draconian dictatorship will represent the last stages of a generational transition towards such a governmental structure. We are watching this build-up now reach its latter stages and the results are quite disconcerting.

We've been following developments within the EU and the UN which reveal the current financial crisis as a stimulus leading to more and more centralized power and control and paralleling these developments, we are seeing the same types of developments in the U.S.

Human government never has and never will work. We can simply tour history and see the end product of any human government, regardless of how it began - even with the best of intentions - the end result is government led by corruption, greed, oppression, destruction, imprisonment, fear, despair, poverty, religious persecution, coupled with absolute control of citizens.

It happens every time - it is a guarantee.

Only at the time of the Second Coming will it end and only Jesus is fit to lead mankind.

Daniel 2 gives us this hope and reveals the final stages of the last (and worst) form of human government as Jesus' coming ends all forms of human government. This scripture, as found in Daniel 2:44 shows the ending of this last (Tribulation) gasp of human government as shown by the 10 Kings who will rule with the antichrist:

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people" (in other words, no more human government)

"It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end."

Daniel 7:26 reveals the outcome of Jesus' coming and the destruction of the last form of human government which had been led by the false prophet and the antichrist:

"But the court will sit and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power, and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed down to the saints, the people of the most high. His kingdom (Jesus) will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him."

That is the ultimate promise as human government ends.

However, that only comes at the end of the Tribulation, and for now, there is much much worse human government to endure, and we are seeing this progression in living color - right before our eyes:

On April 2nd, the US Supreme Court ruled that jails do not violate privacy rights by routinely strip-searching everyone, even those arrested on minor traffic offences. This decision is part of a disturbing trend in US law enforcement practices: The addition of a sexual humiliation component to them – a component that was found in the most oppressive police states in History. Due to its powerful psychological effect on people, sexual humiliation is currently used in places where physical and psychological torture is tolerated such as Guantanamo Bay and now, this technique is becoming increasingly tolerated on civilians. Here’s a great article on the spread of this disturbing trend in America

Believe me, you don’t want the state having the power to strip your clothes off. And yet, it’s exactly what is happening

In a five-four ruling this week, the supreme court decided that anyone can be strip-searched upon arrest for any offense, however minor, at any time. This horror show ruling joins two recent horror show laws: the NDAA, which lets anyone be arrested forever at any time, and HR 347, the “trespass bill”, which gives you a 10-year sentence for protesting anywhere near someone with secret service protection. These criminalizations of being human follow, of course, the mini-uprising of the Occupy movement.

Is American strip-searching benign? The man who had brought the initial suit, Albert Florence, described having been told to “turn around. Squat and cough. Spread your cheeks.” He said he felt humiliated: “It made me feel like less of a man.”

In surreal reasoning, justice Anthony Kennedy explained that this ruling is necessary because the 9/11 bomber could have been stopped for speeding. How would strip searching him have prevented the attack? Did justice Kennedy imagine that plans to blow up the twin towers had been concealed in a body cavity? In still more bizarre non-logic, his and the other justices’ decision rests on concerns about weapons and contraband in prison systems. But people under arrest – that is, who are not yet convicted – haven’t been introduced into a prison population.

History shows that the use of forced nudity by a state that is descending into fascism is powerfully effective in controlling and subduing populations.

The political use of forced nudity by anti-democratic regimes is long established. Forcing people to undress is the first step in breaking down their sense of individuality and dignity and reinforcing their powerlessness

Where are we headed? Why? These recent laws criminalizing protest, and giving local police – who, recall, are now infused with DHS money, military hardware and personnel – powers to terrify and traumatise people who have not gone through due process or trial, are being set up to work in concert with a see-all-all-the-time surveillance state. A facility is being set up in Utah by the NSA to monitor everything all the time: James Bamford wrote in Wired magazine that the new facility in Bluffdale, Utah, is being built, where the NSA will look at billions of emails, texts and phone calls. Similar legislation is being pushed forward in the UK.

Remember, you don’t need to have done anything wrong to be arrested in America any longer. You can be arrested for walking your dog without a leash. The man who was forced to spread his buttocks was stopped for a driving infraction. I was told by an NYPD sergeant that “safety” issues allow the NYPD to make arrests at will. So nothing prevents thousands of Occupy protesters – if there will be any left after these laws start to bite – from being rounded up and stripped naked under intimidating conditions.

Last weekend I visited the U.C. Berkeley campus and on a whim attended a lecture with the provocative title “Teaching as a Subversive Activity — Revisited.”

Because this was a presentation aimed at education insiders only, the lecturer, retired professor H. Douglas Brown from S.F. State, seemed perfectly willing to let the cat out of the bag about political indoctrination on college campuses. Fortunately, I had my trusty camera with me, so I was able not only to snap a few pictures but also record several key portions of his speech, which I found so eye-opening that I felt the general public deserved to hear it as well.

Let it be noted that Professor H. Douglas Brown is no wild-eyed extremist; in fact, he’s rather bland and respectable and not the most thrilling of speakers, as you will soon hear. But that’s what made his presentation so disturbing: radical and self-admittedly “subversive” attitudes that affect the future of society are discussed with matter-of-fact nonchalance.

Professor Brown’s talk focuses specifically on this problem: His basic thesis is that it is no longer sufficient to simply tell students to think for themselves, because then we lose the ability to influence them, and there’s no guarantee that the students will then develop progressive worldviews. The “Revisited” part of the lecture’s title means that these days, we must be more blunt and to the point: Since the good guys are now in charge, let’s just dispense with all the experimentation and instead directly indoctrinate the students in leftist thought and ideals.

I nearly fell out of my chair when he first said that he wished conservatives didn’t have freedom of speech, and then practically the very next phrase out of his mouth was that people like him believe in “a culture of open-mindedness.” I mean c’mon, does he have any self-awareness? How could someone say that with a straight face? And the audience just laughed, ha ha ha. This only confirms what I have long suspected: That liberals have banished overt conservative thought from many college campuses with “speech codes,” and that given half a chance they would implement the same thing society-wide, and feel sanctimonious and justified in doing so.

Marxism spawned Socialism. Marxism produced the foundation of European welfare state socialism. The European model tried to nationalize Socialism, as with the Bolshevik revolution, but with less success. After the failure of nationalization through revolution, European socialists realized that free enterprise in private hands produced capital (money) which they could then steal through taxation and then redistribute to all through social programs, thereby achieving socialism.

Fairness is the mantra of socialists. Fairness in healthcare, fair share of tax payments, fair prices for all through state controlled markets, fairness for the environment through green energy, racial fairness through enforced civil rights, fairness in gender equality and protection of homosexuality through tough hate crime laws, to name a few. All of this fairness must be executed and enforced through an all-powerful centralized government by controlling everyone to be able to provide all of life’s needs from the cradle to the grave.

Redistribution is the cornerstone of socialism. And herein lies the reason why Obama hates the Constitution. The Constitution of the United States of America is the death blow to socialism. The Constitution limits government and empowers the individual while protecting individual liberty. Socialism is not compatible with a limited government and free citizens who govern themselves.

It was Friday the 13. If you are superstitious, then the new Executive Order issued yesterday, “Supporting Safe and Responsible Development of Unconventional Domestic Natural Gas Resources” must give you pause.

Because natural gas produced 25 percent of our energy in 2011, the federal government must control this source of energy in order to deliver on the promise of making gasoline prices rise to $10 per gallon, bankrupt the coal industry, and cause energy prices to skyrocket.

An interagency working group is tasked to “facilitate coordinated Administration policy efforts to support safe and responsible unconventional domestic natural gas development.”

This working group bureaucracy will be chaired by the Director of the Domestic Policy Council and has several curious members that have no direct involvement with natural gas production:

  • the Department of Defense
  • the Department of the Interior
  • the Department of Agriculture
  • the Department of Commerce
  • the Department of Health and Human Services
  • the Department of Transportation
  • the Department of Energy
  • the Department of Homeland Security
  • the Environmental Protection Agency
  • the Council on Environmental Quality
  • the Office of Science and Technology Policy
  • the Office of Management and Budget
  • the National Economic Council

The White House Blog continues, “At the same time, as the administration develops a framework for safe and responsible production that builds on steps already taken by states across the country, we must ensure that those efforts continue to happen in a coordinated way.”

There we have it; we cannot let states continue business as usual. We must interfere and impose federal power and control over the states. We cannot let cheap natural gas interfere with our plan for expensive alternative sources of energy. Fossil fuels and fracking are tampering with our power grab plans.

In a recent interview with Accuracy in Media, author and political activist Deneen Borelli called Al Sharpton an “ambulance chaser,” citing the Tawana Brawley case. Borelli is the author of the new book Blacklash: How Obama and the Left are Driving Americans to the Government Plantation. In the book, Borelli exposes the Left’s attempt to silence black conservatives who are battling against the Obama administration’s goal of expanding the government and increasing the number of people dependent on the welfare state.

Borelli considers the book as a call to action to empower Americans to help stop the cycle of government dependency, which deprives citizens of their rights to freedom and prosperity. Not only is she an author, but she’s a Fellow at Project 21, a network of black conservatives, which is an initiative of the National Center for Public Policy Research, based in Washington, D.C. She’s also a Fellow with FreedomWorks, and a contributor to Fox News. Her website is

if you’re concerned about liberty—I mean, let’s face it: Obamacare is about control. It’s an unfunded mandate. Literally what’s going to happen is, you’re going to have some faceless bureaucrat standing between you and your doctor, when, in fact, it should be the individual and the doctor who should be making the best choices and decisions for that individual, for their family. I know from just going to the post office, for example, the government can’t do anything within economic reason, or to be accountable.

Unfortunately, the story below, as refreshing as it is, is probably too little too late, but at least someone is waking up to the realities that we are facing:

The City of Colfax, CA reportedly defeated UN Agenda 21 by a 4-0 vote and passed Resolution No. 12-2012.

Ken Delfino, one of the City Councilmen, reportedly wrote a letter describing what he learned about UN Agenda 21 and urges others to educate themselves about it too.

Dear friends, constituents and colleagues:

This evening the attached resolution was introduced and discussed…and was passed by a 4-0 vote.

This particular topic has been discussed in previous council meetings as more and more people are becoming aware of this United Nations program that has been hidden under a myriad of titles starting with the “New World Order” in 1992 and the addition of many of these restrictive and business-killing environmental initiatives that have been introduced and passed in the past 2-3 years.

On-line searches of anti-American U.N. bias and statements will show you just how much this organization despises the success of our country. We are railed against by the likes of Hugo Chavez, the Castro brothers, Daniel Ortega, Moammar Khadaffy and other anti-American leaders not just from their capitols, but worse, from the United Nations building in New York City!

The ultimate goal of United Nations’ Agenda 21 is global governance with the U.N as the head agency.

Many of my council colleagues from other jurisdictions have gotten together to find ways to fight this cancer that has crept into our government. We all took an Oath to support our state and United States constitutions and protect our citizens and community against all enemies…foreign and domestic…and this is the statement our city made tonight to this effect.

We believe other cities and counties have made such stands and we hope others will join us.

I ask that if you have not done so, to at least [sic] research this program and come to your own conclusion.

In closing, I want to stress that this is not a Republican v. Democrat v. Libertarian, left v. right, religious [sic] v. atheist issue…this is purely an anti-American issue aimed at eliminating our national sovereignty!

In continued service to my country and community,

Ken Delfino
City of Colfax, CA

And this:

3. RESOLUTION No. 12-2012: City of Colfax, California (see page 21 at this link:

R E S O L U T I O N No. 12-2012


WHEREAS, the United Nations Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of extreme environmentalism, social engineering and global political control that was initiated at the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil in 1992 and…

WHEREAS the United Nations Agenda 21 has been and continues to be covertly pushed into local communities throughout the United States of America through what was the International Council of Local Environmental Initiatives (ICLEI) through local “sustainable development” policies such as ‘Smart Growth’, ‘Wildlands Projects’, ‘Resilient Cities’, ‘Regional Visioning Projects’ and similar names and…

WHEREAS this United Nations Agenda 21 plan of radical so-called “sustainable development” views the American way of life of private property ownership, single family homes, private car ownership and individual travel choices and privately owned farms all as destructive to the environment and…

WHEREAS according to the United Nations Agenda 21 policy, social justice is described as the right and opportunity of all people to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment which would be accomplished by redistribution of wealth and…

WHEREAS according to the United Nations Agenda 21 policy, National Sovereignty is deemed a social injustice.

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that in order to help protect property rights of our citizens, the Council of the City of Colfax, California recognizes the destructive and insidious nature of United Nations Agenda 21 and hereby exposes to the public and public policy makers the dangerous intent of the plan and be it further

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that neither the United States government nor state or local government is legally bound by the United Nations Agenda 21 treaty in that the treaty has never been endorsed by the United States Senate and therefore be it further

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the implementation of the United Nations Agenda 21 destructive strategies for “sustainable development” at the federal, state and local governments across the country will have harmful repercussions and we hereby reject all of its radical policies that are not in the best interests of our citizens and the City of Colfax and our Sphere of Influence.

PASSED AND ADOPTED, this 11th day of April, 2012, by the City Council of the City of Colfax, by the following roll call vote:


Steve Harvey Karen Pierce
Mayor City Clerk

Also see:

During his Friday evening broadcast, Glenn Beck hosted a panel comprising survivors of Communist regimes. Each took time to relive their painful stories and share opinions on Western society’s current, inexplicable exultation of socialism and Communism.

The panelists hailed from all over the world, including Cuba, Cambodia, East Germany and various countries of the former Soviet Union, to name a few. Their personal accounts of experiencing food rations, religious persecution, confiscation of business, imprisonment, murder and assault on personal freedom, rang hauntingly familiar to one another’s.

The Tribulation is approaching like a freight train at full speed. Fortunately, the Church won't be here for the worst of this totalitarian nightmare, but we're here to see the early stages and it is quite ominous and scary to anyone with an ounce of discernment.

I personally believe this is one of several reasons that we have the following advice from Jesus Himself, as He knew we'd be seeing these developments as the Church age approaches its last days on earth:

"When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28)

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near" (Luke 21:31)

In other words, we should be focused on the promises offered by Jesus and not the approaching carnage that is coming to the earth.

After clarifying the various nuances of the "gathering up" of the Church, the apostle Paul also gave us important perspective:

"Now may the lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you" (2 Thessalonians 3:16)

Amen. Peace be with us during these difficult days. We've been told what awaits us, and that should be the focus of our attention.



Annie said...

Thank you Scott for your wonderful article! I am at peace, and happy knowing how close we are to our eternal home! God Bless you. Maranatha to you too!

Anonymous said...

This may end up posting twice because I'm not very computer savvy. Anyway, I come to this blog every day, several times a day. It is an incredible blessing to me. It seems like all of the churches near us have gone "apostate," so I really look forward to "hearing" what you all have to say. What I'm about to ask of you is off topic, I know, but I really need your prayers. My husband, our grandson, and I were going horse back riding this morning. Long story short, my horse turned into the Tasmanian devil and fell on top of me. I hit the ground pretty hard on my right side. My head is hurting, as is my right hip, right ankle, and spine. I have prayed for healing, but the devil is really trying to put fear into me - telling me that I've got a brain injury and a spinal cord issue. I know I probably should go to the ER, but we just can't afford it (no insurance). Also, our hospital isn't known to be the best in the world. I've got praise music going and I'm making myself keep moving around instead of lying down like I want to. Would you all please, please, please be praying that I am OK, that I am healed? Also, we are supposed to be going to our oldest son's house for supper tonight and I was planning to take the movie "Courageous" for us all to watch. I have been praying for his salvation for so long. I know that is why what happened this morning happened. The devil doesn't want me going over there. Please also pray that my son's heart will be softened and that the Lord will give him that extra measure of faith that he needs to accept Christ, that He will draw my son to Him. Thank you so much. You are all a blessing to me every day. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I love you so much!


Caver said...


Praying for all you identified and more.

God Bless, Sis

The Cavers

Anonymous said...

Elizabeth, I just prayed for healing both physically and mentally regarding your accident, I also prayed for the Lord, even now, to start softening your son's heart toward the free gift of salvation. Most of my family are unsaved so I know how you feel. I'll be thinking of you today and praying for you and your son.

Also to Scott...I just wanted to say how thankful I am and Im sure we all are of the time and effort you put into this website. It has truly been a great blessing to me. Your efforts do not go unappreciated. You and your family will also be in my prayers.

Anonymous said...

regarding tribulation:
is this difficult to understand?
the gathering of elect in mat24:29-31 is "after those tribulation" note with trumpet.
the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be change at the last trump in 1cor15:52.
the rapture in 1thes4:16-18 describes a.dead in christ rising first, b. voice of angel, c. trump of God d. then we will meet them in clouds.
Coincidentally rev 11:11 and onwards describe this
resurrection of dead
voice in heaven
they ascended in clouds
and if you further read the seventh trump sounded (the last trump)
compare this to daniel 9:27 (which doesnt even say tribulation, and does not describe any events in 1thes4:16-18)
what would you choose to believe as describe by the bible or explained by men?

In Christ

Anonymous said...

You are in my prayers. And I believe God will heal you in His own ways.
let His will be done.

In Christ,

Helen said...

Elizabeth, I too am praying for your healing. Please let us know how you are doing.

Your sister in Jesus,

Dave Down Under said...

I here ya. Unfortunately IMO prophetic interpretation is WAY open to our individual understanding of what the bible is saying.

Once a group of like minded people come together they form a fellowship of love and support and lift each other up in love and the hope of what they believe provides. But it doesn't end there!

Then there are those of us who are undecided about what to believe and through pressure of "wanting to belong" we submit without conviction to the belief of the day.
The sad thing is often the individuals set in their beliefs in both opposing camps will pull each other down in ridicule simply because they all believe what they do. I will say I believe that is akin to persecution on an individuals God given freedom and ability to think and reason. It's sad these cold wars in the name of "heresy hunting" are being waged in the house of God and it's also sad that walls are now erected and lines have been drawn to indicate seperation of the two belief camps.

IMO we are not ready for heaven or the return of Jesus as long as these lines of cold hostility remain with Gods children and as long as we are saying "they teach heresy".
If only bothprophecy camps would study each others beliefs in the Spirit of love and understanding. Done properly I believe both sides will see why they believe what they do and be more compassionate towards the other!

I'm not talking prophetic ecumenicalism, simply getting back to compassion and understanding of each others beliefs. Goodness me, the wording here lately has been eye opening to say the least. We are all Christian brothers and sisters and we all be rising to meet the Lord in the air regardless of wether we believe Jesus comes at the second coming, secret rapture coming or any other coming.

Scott I know this is off subject and I appologise. I'll say nothing more on this subject. I'm in no way defending the anon saga, they were way off line. This is simply my observations.

Dave Down Under

Scott said...

These are some very basic things that you are not understanding.

The trump mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thess 4 has nothing to do with the trumpet judgments of Revelation....This is for a variety of reasons, all of which are obvious.

The book of Revelation was written long after 1 cor and 1 Thess - so obviously the apostle Paul wasn't referencing Revelation with the Trumpet call.

The trumpet call is seen throughout the Bible - not just in revelation - and the references could be extensive.

Hal Lindsey believes that the Trumpet call in reference to the Rapture is analogous to the series of Trumpet calls seen in Exodus, and when the encampment was preparing to leave, there would be a long trumpet blast which meant that they aere leaving the encampment.

You fail to mention that a trumpet call was also heard by the apostle John in Revelation 4:1, which represents the end of the church age - as most literal scholars agree that the book of Revelation is in chronological order. Additionally, Rev 4:1 starts with "After this..." - meaning After the Church Age (which was just detailed in Rev 2-3). John's ascension in Rev 4:1 was also before the beginning of the Tribulation, further disassociating this trumpet with the Trumpet Judgments.

There are many good reasons to understand that the Trumpet call in reference to the Rapture is vastly different from the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation.

Just a little research reveals this truth

Scott said...

Matthew 24:29-31 is indeed a reference to the Second Coming. Whats the point here?

Once the second Coming is described, Jesus changes His train of thought starting in verse 32 when he proclaimed "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree"...At that point He is no longer in chronology and He's going back and providing more detail on what He had just described.

I agree - it isn't difficult at all.

I have a simple question for you.

If Jesus took God's wrath (for His believers) on the cross - a basic doctrine that we all understand - then why would the Church have to face God's wrath during the Tribulation?

Can you explain that?

Also - what was meant in Revelation 3:10 when it is stated that the church will be KEPT FROM the hour of Wrath? What does that mean to you?


What does it mean to you in 1 Thess 1:10 when we were told that our instructions are to "Wait for His Son From Heaven, Whom He raised from the dead - Jesus - who RESCUES US FROM THE COMING WRATH"?

Also what does it mean, in 1 Thess 5:9 when we are told that "God did NOT APPOINT US TO SUFFER THE WRATH but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus" ?

This is just a starting point - but to progress through these questions, you need to give some plausible answers to each of the above questions.

Scott said...


I honestly believe that the scriptures regarding the timing of the 'gathering up" are unambiguous and straightforward. This is based on a thorough reading of the scriptures...I know I will never get an answer to the above questions (well, at least reasonable answers) because they do not exist. I can go on for days and days about Matt 24 but we haven't even gotten there yet and I have a ton of additional scriptures that have to be explained - but the above is just a place to start.

People in the post-trib camp or mid-trib camp have never given me even close to satisfactory answers to these most basic questions. Not in 30 years. I'm still waiting..

Also...Find me the description of the Rapture anywhere in Revelation 6-18. Anywhere. Find me the Church described anywhere in Revelation 6-18. You can't....Isn;t this a rather large omission - ie, the fate of the church, if indeed is on earth during the Trib - why is there no mention of it in the appropriate chapters of Rev? (6-18)

Scott said...

If the Rapture happens at the end of the tribulation, why isn't it described anywhere in the passages that describe the second coming?

Rev 19? No.
Zech 14? No
Matt 24? No.

Where is the description?

Caver said...


Dave Down Under offered some very valid observations.

Lots of the frustrations are that you and others come and state many of the type beliefs as you did today. Someone else takes the time to respond to you in detail...usually with scripture.

You usually ignore the questions or responses, which took much time and effort to compose, and just continue on. At best, you may respond to a few of their arguments.

Dave Down Under is correct. This breeds hostility. If the specific points were taken one by one and discussed to completion everyone would probably gain much understanding.

Simply ignoring the responses, especially when they involve scripture, and continuing to repeat the assertions provides no enlightenment and breeds frustration hostility.

In fact, one could make a strong argument that continuing on, without discussing the differences completely, indicates the main goal was to create divisiveness and anger in the Christian camp.

Anonymous said...

second coming:
Christ feet shall stand at that day (zech14)
rapture we will meet him in the air,
mat 24, after those tribulation lots of bad things will still happen as also rev 19, the angel who describe the destruction of the Whore is one of the angel who holds the wrath of God.
We are not appointed to wrath. how long is the wrath? a year maybe for it is a day of vengeance isa 34:8


Scott said...

The Time of Jacob's Trouble = Wrath = Tribulation = last 7 years of the 490 years as described to the Prophet Daniel.

It's the entire 7 year period.

Only 483 years (of the 490) will have transpired on this prophetic timeline intended for the NATION OF ISRAEL's clock prior to the Tribulation. That leaves 7 years.

Mrs.C said...

Hi Brother Scott, :)
Before going any further on this never ending circle that steels your time, you may want to view the following thread a few pages back, and it will enlighten you as to what is going on here right now, ONCE AGAIN!

Evening Updates:

It is intentionally being done, ONCE AGAIN. “mato” is entrenched in the belief that we ALREADY are in the middle of the Trib. When attempting to discuss this error, responses to Scriptural evidence are ignored. The short of it, “mato” states that we are in the middle of the Trib, and that the “Church” will go through the Trib. I quote “mato” from the above mentioned thread 4/3/12
Mato - “i am amaze that you did really say that those "tribulation saints" are not part of the Church...this is very dangerous...”
The false views that are stated, also are very familiar. You had had to engage someone weeks ago, that had presented, almost verbatim, the same false teachings, and you were forced to delete the posts. Finally, its amazing how “mato” began with what appeared to be broken English in the posts, and now AMAZINGLY he/she speaks fluent English.
Wow, just amazing…again before you waist anymore time in a never ending “discussion” please review the above thread…
God Bless You Brother!

Dave Down Under said...

All, I didn't mean to start debates, all I'm saying is to please bevaware of the hostilities that can exist between the two camps.

I for one am undecided, but I respect what everyone here believes. If I can't be quiet about my indesicivness I really should leave and not come back. I'm suspecting a lot of people out there are the same boat I am and for some reason this whole thing just hasn't clicked with me yet......20 years later. It's frustrating to say the least, but, I do enjoy the fellowship.

I think the whole point is for both camps to please beware of pulling down each other down to the point of calling each other heretics.

Mato all I'm saying there's no use in pushing and questioning the beliefs in this camp; everyon here is secure in their hope. It just causes divisions.

Love you all in Christ

Mrs.C said...

Dear Brother Dave, :)
There is a difference between the earnest and sincere wanting to know His Word, and those that have an agenda, entering a site that clearly believes differently to attempt to force feed others their false beliefs.
There are those who use false names Brother Dave, not just "anons", to provoke strife. There is much more insidious things going on here Brother.
As so called "mato" stated before,

"I am not promoting fear but rather comfort that what ever you believe, pre, mid, or post. God will keep those who believes (His Church) and be able to escape the hour of trial."

Oh, but it is promoting fear! What hope does the Church have if they believe that they will go through Gods Judgment and Wrath!
Secondly, there are many, many fence sitters, and new Believers. This incorrect and false teaching scares away any fence sitters, and diminishes any hope for the new Believers. So this IS a matter of someone’s very acceptance of Jesus as their Savior. This has Eternal ramifications.
God Bless You Dave!

Caver said...

On this thread you have addressed questions. On previous threads you have completely ignored them or addressed only convenient questions. Reference the April 3 post and give-n-take.

The major hurdling block, however, has been just as this thread. This subject of doctrine has completely derailed the subject matter....the subjects Scott posted as prophecy. The thread was derailed in a completely different direction....and it is a pattern.

The post tonight is a huge took a large amount of work for Scott to put together. Yet, once again...its hijacked in this direction. Several poster names display the same method of operation....the intent and result is always the same.

Its getting old, its rude, and its disrespectful....IMHO

Scott said...


You are still ignoring the questions I have posed.

Lets get the ball rolling with a thorough discussion of those most basic scriptures that you seem unable to respond to before we move on.

The problem is - your camp can NEVER answer those questions, and rather, like a broken record you just continue to throw out the same mantra over and over and that is of no use to anyone.

Lets take a look line by line of the scriptures I put above - and tell me what they mean if not pointing to a pre trib rapture.

Many thanks

Waterer said...

Dear Scott,

What an outstanding and incredibly clear and well written Post this is.
Thank you very much!Today I was able to spend the afternoon over tea with a good friend discussing all the changes that are happening. We visited as Mothers too trusting the Lord with those He gave to us to raise in the Lord. This is a time like no other. May Jesus's prayer for our Oneness in Him be a Light that reflects the Oneness in the Trinity.
Thank you Scott!

Scott said...

It is indeed a time like no other. Its surreal that we are really and truly living in a 'Biblical Age". I have to believe that there is a reason that each of us are alive at this moment in time. Its so profound and deep that we are here, now , watching these things happening before our very eyes.

Thank God for Biblical prophecy...Without it, I believe I would be terrified. With it? Nothing but hope for the future and the gathering up!

Thanks, and God Bless

Caver said...


After you address Scott's questions I have two for you. These are questions posed to you previously but ignored. They are....

1. If memory serves, when you came to this board, you could hardly speak English...

Within two weeks, you was fluent.

How did this happen...or more importantly, Why?

2. You contend the Church and the Trib Saints are the same.

Well, we're told the Church will rule and reign with Jesus Christ.

In Rev 7:13-15 there is a description of what the Trib Saints will do for eternity. Is this the same thing?

Is Ruling and Reigning with Jesus Christ the same thing as serving before the throne of God and serving Him day and night in His temple?

I would contend that ruling and reigning with Jesus is very different than serving God in His temple.

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you in advance.

Allly said...

Wowsa brothers and sisters! DUU, it took me awhile to swing iver to pretrib. But Scotts teaching made it happen for me. And who is to say why certaun things are the way they are. I dont presume to have an inkling as to why God does what. Simetimes I get it, most of the time not. Cuz his ways are not our ways! But that is why faith is about trusting him. You look at a situation and say,oh no and he says, oh yes or vice versa. Makes absolutely no sense in rhe natural, but hey im not un charge!
One thing I do know and over and over see here is how easy it is for satan to bait you guys unto disharmony. Why do you fall for it over and over again? Remember how rough it was wirh Stephen for a while? Til we all got to know him and afterprayer discovered he is an awesome guy who loves God and for whatever reason, the ewi stickmarket rhing is his focus. Plus there was definately some kind if attack from the enemy on him and I think God led him here for prayer covering.
I know you guys know the Bible lots better than me, but sometimes a simple "the Lord rebuke you" in the name of Jesus does wonders for a devil manipulated situation. A little bind and tie, ya know? All un the privacy of your home!
I know I push you all sometimes, I have hard to answer questions and need prayer greatly sometimes and I dont always "act" like peoole think a christian should. but im cleansed by the blood, not by my behavior. And frankly, a lot of us, this blog is our ownly fellowship. There arent that many real lovers of christ out there folks! So we gots to stick together.
Im glad im bad at math. I hate devisors and division but im all about multiplication. ;)
Love u so much!

Diane said...

I am sorry , but I fail to understand how and why people can get upset about end times issues.

Does a child worry and fret about how and when his dad will get him home ? No, he trusts that his dad has it all worked out and will get him safely where he needs to be, when he needs to be there.

Surely, God, as our Heavenly Father, is able to do much more and beyond that for us. He has it all worked out ,we are not God, and neither does anyone have all the answers.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding" Proverbs 3:5


Perhaps Scott's book would be helpful to those who have more questions ? (There is a link on this blog :) Diane

Dave Down Under said...

Hi Mrs C I trust all is well and the Lord continues to meet your needs.

WRT your post, it must be strange being undecided about this crucial segment of prophecy. To be undecided as I am must be, to the general prophetic community of believers, a "hopeless" situation. All I can say is, not at all, at this stage anyway! It's more of a "surrender, abandonment to what will happen" type of theology. I can't explain it except I just place my faith in Christ one day at a time. Mind you it's not that I don't care or what ever will be will be, it's just a matter of keeping track of things day by day and putting the puzzle together as the days deteriorate into KAOS.

That's my psychology in all of this, lol! and as I said above it must look like a hopeless situation. But God has a plan for my life and he will make that known in time. In the meantime ill just continue to study, watch and pray, coming onto Scott's site daily and watching to the east for Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Just got thru reading all the above I realize how much Satan much HATE the Rapture of the Church.

It's is rude to ignore or jump over postings you have no answer for and continue what I consider a rant.

Scott laid everything out so clearly that I can only assume that those people posting under all those fake names are just here to create division. I don't think they can do that...I wish I had a giant DELETE button from here. I plan on skipping over them..

Caver, I picked up on the improvement in the english also...

Scott said...

Stephen - I never saw any posts from you regarding the Trumpets - so whatever happened isn't from my end.

Mato - the Church is not the same as the Tribulation saints. The Church age ends at the time of the Rapture of the Church and those who come to Christ are not part of the Church; its a different dispensation entirely. That is one of your mistakes. The bible draws a distinction between these two sets of believers.

Caver said...

The Church rules and reigns with Christ, the Church believed through faith, not seeing or physical proof.

The Trib Saints serve the Lord God, they did not believe through faith but only after physical proof of supernatural events.

Anonymous said...

Ok, I will say it again, Scott >>>

All i was saying before is that I felt that the current incidents of
trumpets that I have seen on the Internet since MARCH 2011 until
now is a PRELUDE to the rapture
i believe BUT that it has NOT been
revealed to man exactly how many
trumpets must BLAST or SOUND before
that final trump call at the rapture.

I also said that nothing in this
world is perfect BUT that I was
using EWI as always since I have
NO IDEA what number that last trump
call at the rapture is.

and of course EWI wave counts are
not perfect either.

Maybe my last post went to spam,
i am not sure. BUT from what I can
tell, people on the Internet are
still reporting trumpet noises
even in the last few weeks.

Stephen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anonymous said...

There is a very simple answer to Mato, just tell him this.

the PRE TRIB rapture to be true.

If mr. MATO would only look at that, he would see the light and not argue for nothing.

Stephen >>>>>>>>>>>>

Caver said...

Dave DU,
Brother, I don't think anyone begrudges you the indecision or a non Pre Trib Rapture view. Shucks, one of the great present day prophecy scholars today, Chuck Missler, acknowledges there is room for serious men / women of the Bible to disagree on some biblical events...this being one of them.

The contention is that a few falsely disguised as "many" continue to come here in deceit for the purpose of disruption and with an agenda of arguing doctrine. Doctrine contrary to the prevailing view of this site, at that.

There are a multitude of places both they and we can go to for that purpose. It is welcomed there. Many of us spent many years at such places.

Unless I am badly mistaken, however, that is not what Scott set up here. This is not a message board. This is not a site debating their issues. The sole purpose of this site is the monitoring of world events as they relate to prophecy...monitoring the progress, implications, and place on the time line, if you will.

For a few to come here under false and multiple identies and try to redirect the discussion to their personal agenda and change the core beliefs and throw out for redirection every new teaching and book and YouTube and work it around to their particular conviction is not helpful to prophecy watching. Scott invests a huge amount of time and resources into providing us the one single best place on the planet for what this site is intended for. To try and steal this and use it for selfish purposes.....well, this watcher is loosing his patience with them. Indeed, my earlier outburst was probably inappropriate and risk offending my host, Scott. For that I do apologize.

But to come here under false pretenses, false and multiple identities, and for the purpose of self interest is just wrong. Period.

Indeed, the important thing is that one is Saved...Born Again. I have a hard time, personally, of believing that someone coming here under such intentional deceptive pretenses can be filled with the Holy Spirit....well, at least be listening to Him.

But that is beside the point....prophecy is prophecy and if you are Pre, Mid, or Post Trip does not detract from your Salvation nor ability to watch and discuss prophecy without continually attempting to hijack the discussion for your personal agenda.

Sorry, Caver pays Scott his $0.02 and heads for his corner.......

Anonymous said...

Stephen I believe people are not hearing trumpet sounds but are hearing Im not a nut case, lol...please look it up. Youtube has some examples

Dave Down Under said...

Thanks Caver.

Anonymous said...

Thank you all so much for your prayers! Cavers, the Holy Spirit must have told you about the "other" because it came out into the open yesterday, praise God! A huge burden has been lifted, and I believe that with everyone's prayers, I can overcome this through Jesus Christ. Praise Him and thank you all forever and ever! Scott, thank you so much for all that you do here. It is truly a blessing. All of you who are trying to divide and conquer - well I bind you all now in Jesus' Holy name and command you to be silent. This blog is intended for encouragement and edification, not turmoil and disagreement. I pray that all of my brothers and sisters in Christ will be strengthened by His Holy Spirit so that we will all be able to stand strong in these last days until Jesus comes to take us home. Maranatha, Lord Jesus, Maranatha!

Here totally by His unending love and everlasting grace,


Anonymous said...

bro scott,
you wouldn't get an answer if you continue deleting my replies.

in christ


Anonymous said...

hi bro scott,
the basic about prophecy *2Pe 1:21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
genesis and other books were written before revelation, and they point to only one. (Our Lord Jesus coming to earth)
what is clear by paul is we are all going to be changed specifically "at the last trump".
If you know any last trump other than the seventh, please share as i want to understand.
Rev 4:1 if you going to read it, he heard " A Voice" like a trumpet. not a trumpet. Is it so hard to believe that the Lord reveals that there will be seven trumpet?
also, rev 4:1 does not describe any resurrection of dead, compare that to rev 11.
vs. 11 resurrection of dead
vs 12 Voice in heaven plus ascended to clouds
vs 15 seventh trumpet sounded which is the last
a clear picture of rapture.
and then what happens after that "the Wrath"
vs 18" And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

no need to explain, just believe.
in christ,

Anonymous said...

bro scott,
exactly and i agree with you on that, all the verses clearly describe the Wrath not tribulations.
I do npt need to explain this because the wrath of God will be poured at the sounding of the last trump and further detailed in rev 15.
[Rev 15:1] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
the last plagues filled by the Wrath of God.
very clear again no need to explain just believe.

in christ,

Anonymous said...

bro scott,
the seven year tribulations, is this the word of God or explanation of men.
Rev 15 = Wrath of God (this on the other hand was clearly written)
where would you bet your life, the explanation of 1week by men or revealed by God in rev 15?

in christ

Anonymous said...

bro. caver,
i suggest you read my comment on apr 3 blog.
re serving him day and night in his temple.

in christ,

Anonymous said...

Bro scott,
picture this after the rapture, if someone read this verse;
2Ti 2:17-18 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
who do think is right then paul or the two?

even worst if pre-trib is wrong, and they are still here when they see the reign of beast, will it not overthrow their faith?
there are only two resurrection of dead, if they are not part of the first, for sure they are part of the second.
Rev 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In Christ,

Anonymous said...

bro scott,
you are right it is straight forward only if you believe.
Jesus says in mat 24 "after those tribulations."
paul said in 1cor 15:52 " at the last trump"
even paul and John remind us we are kept at the hour of "wrath" and we are not appointed to wrath, which Jesus then reveals to us the wrath of God rev 15.
what clearer can you get from that.

in christ

Anonymous said...

bro scott,
you are right it is straight forward only if you believe.
Jesus says in mat 24 "after those tribulations."
paul said in 1cor 15:52 " at the last trump"
even paul and John remind us we are kept at the hour of "wrath" and we are not appointed to wrath, which Jesus then reveals to us the wrath of God rev 15.
what clearer can you get from that.

in christ

Anonymous said...

bro caver,
what more physical proof you need?
are you not satisfied with his creation, are they not supernatural?

It is still faith, they still haven't seen Jesus.
through fear they come to Jesus.

In Christ,