Saturday, July 28, 2012

Saturday Headlines

Syrians: NATO-Backed Militants Seen Donning Gas Masks

For a Western media so fond of reporting “activist” accounts, rumors, and even fabrications, and with all the talk of an impending “massacre” in the northern Syrian city of Aleppo, reports of so-called “Free Syrian Army” militants seen trying on gas masks, along with reports of Libyan chemical weapon caches & equipment being discovered in Damascus is surely headline news.

Libyan weapons, cash, and fighters have also all been confirmed to have made it into Syria in an effort to undermine, divide and destroy Syria.

The London Telegraph reported in its article, “Libya’s new rulers offer weapons to Syrian rebels:”

“There is something being planned to send weapons and even Libyan fighters to Syria,” said a Libyan source, speaking on condition of anonymity. “There is a military intervention on the way. Within a few weeks you will see.”
The Telegraph has also learned that preliminary discussions about arms supplies took place when members of the Syrian National Council [SNC] – the country’s main opposition movement – visited Libya earlier this month.

Albawaba reported in its article, “Libyan fighters join “free Syrian army” forces,” that:

Libyan sources conveyed in recent days that 600 rebel fighters have already gone from Libya to Syria in order to support the Syrian opposition.

The foreign fighters, some of them are clearly drawn because they see this as … a jihad. So this is a magnet for jihadists who see this as a fight for Sunni Muslims.

Clearly Libyan terrorists and their weapons have made it into Syria with the explicit backing of NATO’s recently installed client Libyan regime. The London Guardian had reported that Libya possessed some “25 metric tonnes of bulk mustard agent and 1,400 metric tonnes of precursor chemical used to make chemical weapons.” The Guardian also reported:

Clearly those “Islamist militants” as well as “rebels active in north Africa” are now on the ground in Syria. These militants bringing pilfered chemical weapons with them is entirely plausible, as is the possibility that these weapons were purposefully placed into their hands by either NATO or Libya’s current ruling regime. This very scenario was warned against last month in an article published by Russia Today titled, “Syrian rebels aim to use chemical weapons, blame Damascus – report.”

Syrian rebels in the northern city of Aleppo Friday said they were bracing for the "mother of all battles," as government troops and rebels deployed reinforcements to the area.

"We are ready for the mother of all battles," Abu Omar al-Halabi, a commander in the Free Syrian Army based near the south-eastern district of Salaheddine in Aleppo, told dpa by phone

The two sides have have been fighting for control of Syria's commercial hub since the weekend.

Al-Halabi said more than 3,000 rebel fighters from across Syria had joined the 2,500 already positioned in Aleppo since Thursday.

The government was also sending reinforcements to the city, where its helicopter gunships and artillery were bombarding rebel-held areas, opposition activists said.

The United States said on Thursday it appeared that forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar Assad were "lining up" for a massacre in the city of Aleppo, but again ruled out military intervention in the conflict.

The raging civil war just across the cease-fire line in Syria is posing an uncomfortable political choice for the Druze people in the Israeli-annexed Golan Heights.

Do they maintain their traditional loyalty to the government of Bashar Assad, whose family has vowed to take back the territory? Or should they support the burgeoning Arab revolt against Assad's harsh rule?

The bloody crackdown in Syria has led the Golan Druze to begin speaking more freely.

Mahmoud Amasha, a Bukata apple farmer and insurance agent, said he was "convinced that the
number of people opposing this regime grows every day." But he said divisions over Assad's popularity in Bukata have "cast a shadow over the people in this town."

This one (below) is worth reading: Another excellent commentary from Caroline Glick:

Unlike previous US counterterror officials, Brennan does not share Israel's understanding of Middle Eastern terrorism.

Brennan's outlook on this subject was revealed in a speech he gave two years ago in Washington. In that talk, Brennan spoke dreamily about Hezbollah. As he put it, "Hezbollah is a very interesting organization."

He claimed it had evolved from a "purely terrorist organization" to a militia and then into an organization with members in Lebanon's parliament and serving in Lebanon's cabinet.

Perhaps in a bid to build up those "moderate elements," in the same address, Brennan referred to Israel's capital city Jerusalem as "al Quds," the name preferred by Hezbollah and its Iranian overlords.

Brennan's amazing characterization of Hezbollah's hostile takeover of the Lebanese government as proof that the terrorist group was moderating was of a piece with the Obama administration's view of Islamic jihadists generally.

Brennan's amazing characterization of Hezbollah's hostile takeover of the Lebanese government as proof that the terrorist group was moderating was of a piece with the Obama administration's view of Islamic jihadists generally.

If there are "moderate elements," in Hezbollah, from the perspective of the Obama administration, Hezbollah's Sunni jihadist counterpart - the Muslim Brotherhood - is downright friendly.

Now we can turn to some "inconvenient facts":

Watching Clapper's testimony in Israel, the sense across the political spectrum, shared by experts and casual observers alike was that the US had taken leave of its senses.

The slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood is "Allah is our objective; the Prophet is our leader; the Koran is our law; Jihad is our way; dying in the path of Allah is our highest hope."

How could such a high-level US official claim that such an organization is "largely secular"?

Every day Muslim Brotherhood leaders call for the violent annihilation of Israel. And those calls are often combined with calls for jihad against the US. For instance, in a sermon from October 2010, Muslim Brotherhood head Mohammed Badie called for jihad against the US.

Badie then promised his congregants that the death of America was nigh. In his words, "A nation that does not champion moral and human values cannot lead humanity, and its wealth will not avail it once Allah has had His say, as happened with [powerful] nations in the past. The US is now experiencing the beginning of its end, and is heading towards its demise."

The obliviousness of Brennan and Clapper to the essential nature of Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood are symptoms of the overarching ignorance informing the Obama administration's approach to Middle Eastern realities.

The fact that the US government is flying blind as Syria spins out of control is rendered all the more egregious when you recognize that this was not inevitable. America's ignorance is self-inflicted.

French Foreign Ministry...warned that it would be a disaster for Syria's Christian minority, and for Christians throughout the region, if the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad is overthrown. Rai based this claim on his assessment that Assad would be replaced by a Muslim Brotherhood- dominated Islamist regime.

And nine months later it is obvious that he was right. With Syria's civil war still raging throughout the country, the world media is rife with reports about Syria's Christians fleeing their towns and villages en masse as Islamists from the Syrian opposition target them with death, extortion and kidnapping.

The question is why? Why is the Obama administration shunning potential allies and empowering enemies? Why has the administration gotten it wrong everywhere?

The answer to these questions are ominous, if not downright scary.

In an attempt to get to the bottom of this, and perhaps to cause the administration to rethink its policies, a group of US lawmakers, members of the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees led by Rep. Michele Bachmann sent letters to the inspectors-general of the State, Homeland Security, Defense, and Justice departments as well as to the inspector-general of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. In those letters, Bachmann and her colleagues asked the Inspectors General to investigate possible penetration of the US government by Muslim Brotherhood operatives.

In their letters, and in a subsequent explanatory letter to US Rep. Keith Ellison from Rep. Bachmann, the lawmakers made clear that when they spoke of governmental penetration, they were referring to the central role that Muslim groups, identified by the US government in Federal Court as Muslim Brotherhood front organizations, play in shaping the Obama administration's perception of and policies towards the Muslim Brotherhood and its allied movements in the US and throughout the world.

There is an ample body of evidence that suggests that the administration's decision to side with the hostile Muslim Brotherhood against its allies owes to a significant degree to the influence these Muslim Brotherhood front groups and their operatives wield in the Obama administration.

For their efforts to warn about, and perhaps cause the administration to abandon its reliance on Muslim Brotherhood front groups, Bachmann and her colleagues have been denounced as racists and McCarthyites.

It is clear that the insidious notion that the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate and friendly force has taken hold in US policy circles. And it is apparent that US policymaking in the Middle East is increasingly rooted in this false and dangerous assessment.

In spearheading an initiative to investigate and change this state of affairs, Bachmann and her colleagues should be congratulated, not condemned. And their courageous efforts to ask the relevant questions about the nature of Muslim Brotherhood influence over US policymakers should be joined, not spurned by their colleagues in Washington, by the media and by all concerned citizens in America and throughout the free world.

The U.S. is playing a significant role in the Middle East, and this role involves fostering the "Arab Spring", which has done nothing but to increase the role of radical Islam's power and control in the region - which, in turn has dramatically contributed to the biblical alliances who will invade Israel.

Ponder that scenario for a few minutes. Also ponder these facts in the context of Genesis 12:3, where God makes a definitive, unconditional statement regarding the Nation of Israel:

"I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you I will curse."

Then, after pondering the U.S. role in the Middle East - a role that includes supporting Israel's enemies and actively contributing to the ultimate attempted destruction of Israel (as detailed in Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38-39), ponder how God views these actions. Then consider the imminent economic collapse of America, the droughts, the violence, the loss of freedom, the break-up of the family, abortion, gang warfare, the failing energy grid, the increasing persecution, the effort to remove God from any public discourse, the jailing of a Bible study leader, etc etc. It isn't a pretty picture.

The gathering up can't come soon enough for this prophecy watcher.


Unknown said...

It's so sad that a majority of Americans, and even the Christian ones don't see this as a big deal! It's way across the ocean and doesn't affect me right? But I believe the curses will be upon the ones that don't really care about what happens to Israel as well... not just the ones that hate or curse Israel. Great post... thanks Scott for being a faithful watchman!!! By the way, the scripture is Gen. 12:3... not 3:12.

ChristineInCleveland said...

I have a question & wondering wut your thoughts were re: Matt.24.... It seems we are right in the middle of v.5 -13. If you continue reading to v.27 to v. 30, it says immediately after the tribulation the sun will be darkened & the Son of Man will appear in heaven, & He will gather His elect from the four winds...(v.31) So does this sound like the Rapture of the Church we are so anxiously awaiting, & if so, does this mean we are to be here during the Great Tribulation, as v. 29 implies? Would like to hear what you think on this.... Thanks

Scott said...

No, thats a reference to the Second Coming.

In that passage, Jesus had already described the Tribulation in earlier verses - and most definitely when He was describing the AOD of the antichrist of verses 15-21 and then the second half of the Tribulation, which will be even worse than the first half.

The "generation" He spoke of doesn't end until the second coming, which marks the end of the Tribulation.

The 'chronology' of Matt 24 ends at verse 31 and beginning in verse 32 He begins to clarify certain issues. At verse 32 we see the Fig Tree and we are informed that only one generation would see all of the signs He described and the Tribulation and Second Coming...

Then with the introduction of "No one knows the day or the hour", we are starting to get the intro to the "days of Noah" context to the people "taken" and those "Left" (aka Rapture> as seen in v 36-42.

The Fact that "no one knows the day or the hour" "but only the Father" - is in perfect harmony with John 14 where Jesus gave us the story of the wedding ceremony, when the Groom wouldn't know the hour of his return for the Bride, only the Father would know when the home was ready for the Bride and only the Father would instruct the Groom to return for the Bride to "bring her back to the Father's House"

He doesn't speak of the Rapture until verse 36-42.

Scott said...

Rick - thanks - and I'll change that - it must be my dyslexia:)

ChristineInCleveland said...

Yea, I see now & how v.38-44 speaks of the in the days of Noah.... Thanks for pointing out those verses, Scott. :)

Scott said...

My pleasure - its a pet topic of mine - one that I spent a lot of time with in "Signs...." :) - its one of the more interesting sections of prophecy IMO

Anonymous said...

john 14 does not speak of wedding ceremony.
who are the elect he will gather after the tribulation?

Scott said...

Oh boy....That didn't take long....I'm sure this is the beginning of the same old same old, but here it goes:

Do some homework on John 14 and the PARALLELS to the Wedding Ceremony of the day. Its clear as a bell and a perfect replica of the wedding ceremony

Here are a couple of quick primers (I'm too rushed to do it myself

Jewish Wedding Traditions And The Rapture

The Rapture And The Bride OF Christ

The gathering at the end of the end of the Tribulation is for both the sheep and the goats.

Hubae said...

Awesome posts Scott! I am also ready to go home to our Father's house. I have heard so many people talk about how the "weather is must be 2012". When I try to bring anything biblical into the conversation I am then a nut or "one of those people". I totally can see why these things are happening to the USA and I think it will continue to get worse. As a nation we have turned our back on God and His word. We take things for granted and have put too much trust in the govt and men when we should turn to God for the answers. Please remember to pray for our men and women in the military at home and abroad.
Maranatha......we are going home soon!!!!

Unknown said...

I personally don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture... although it would be awesome to miss being here during that time. I won't get into any argument here on this site out of respect for Scott and his blog. However, I would encourage all to research both sides diligently and come to your own conclusion. It seems that the tribulation will be for the people of God, since everyone else will be eating and drinking and having a wonderful time under the one world government. It looks like there are 3 groups of God's people... the 144,000, the woman who escapes to the wilderness to be nourished for that 3-1/2 years... and the remnant that for whatever reason didn't get out, that keep the commandments...Satan goes to battle with them when he can't get to the escapees. Rev. 7, and Rev. 12. But as I said, study and decide. If I'm wrong, then excellent... If I'm right, then I'll be prepared to fight and die in the name of my God. Either way, when He comes, let Him find us doing His work.

Dave Down Under said...

Hi Rick, I really appreciate your honesty in sharing your beliefs and I see on my mobile version of Scotts site that you've put your photo up, wow your very brave.

I just want to share my Testimony of my experiences in the way I believe things of prophecy. I started out as a new Christian believing in the pretribulation rapture. I got my beliefs from a New Zealand preacher by the name of Barry Smith. He's past on now, but boy he could preach. A very influential guy, charismatic, passionate about Jesus, strong on families and funny. I stuck with Barry for many years. But then one day I was reading in Thessalonians about the Antichrist and how it says that Christ will be coming back, but first two very specific things must happen; the great falling away and the revelation of the AC. I remember sitting there and saying in my mind, "i dont see a pretrib rapture there, it clearly says that Christ will return after those two events". From that day forth I lost all hope and comfort in Barry's ministry and entered a period of hopeless confusion. It's good to test everything and hold on to what is good, but, because I never had a Christian mentor I was left to my own devices and to make up my own mind as to what the Bible was saying. Well, being by nature a "know-all sceptic", I placed myself in a state of seperation from these pretribbers and felt I was capable of directing my own affairs and possessed the capability of interpreting the bible for myself. I got what I wanted; a life of seperation and I ended up not studying scripture with passion. A couple of years ago I decided to stop playing "know-all" and decided to study both myself again, but at least I would have information to help me decide who is right and not rely on my own "enlightened intuition". Ya know what? Both sides are compelling and put up good proofs of scripture, but and I say but, one side persistently refuses to aknowledge certain OT scriptures about future wars and Romans 9-11 and how Israel plays a part in the end of times salvation of the Gentiles. I can't ignore these things Rick they are there and are being ignored by one camp. Israel is in existence and certain scenes described in the OT script are now being acted out on stage.
So where am I now that all this coming to light? I'm leaning towards the pretribbers. What is my position on the belief on putting faith in "me" to interperate scriptures? Honestly, I believe God has appointed faithfull academic men and women to be guardians of scriptural truth in these last days, and I'm placing my "know-all scepticm" aside and am prepared to sit up and listen.
Having said all that Rick, please don't think I'm saying your wrong and you have no idea. I just felt to share a piece of my private life in the hope that someone who is going through what I have been will read and relate and maybe set them up to humility and to listen to God's earthly teachers.

My thoughts

Unknown said...

Great testimony Dave... thanks for that! I know exactly what you mean about being discouraged when you find out you've been following some wrong teachings. I went through some of that myself years ago. But I had a great foundation, and when I was ready to get back into it, I just had to back up a little ways, unlearn some things, and then go from there.

You're probably right about posting my picture. It's just on the google account that I posted with. Guess I should probably change that, lol!

Thanks again for sharing!


Ally said...

I came here midtrib believing. Lol! Now I'm pretty much pretrib! Really, not 100% there but its ok. We all know he is coming, when, even he doesn't know!!!!!!!! Lol, really its funny, very funny! We keep trying to nail it down but Jesus says he doesn't even know. O'vey! Smack hand on forehead, rill around on floor in peals of laughter! O boy!
That said, I think Scott is right on. However, the road might get rocky fer us critters. I think that fork in the road is about RIGHT NOW, the chasm is starting to split wide open!

When the smoke stops pouring out of your ears please go and look up the thing obummer signed on jul27 concerning Israel and decipher it please for my slow mind!
Please pray for chick fil a and the families too. The Vice President of PR for them died on friday morning of a heart attack. This whole thing has been a satan attack and we need to pray like crazy for this company and their employees!
Jesus, come get us out of this crazy house!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Caver said...

Headlines on Fox wiht picture of civilians getting fitted with gas mask.

Israel May Move on Chemical Threat

As Assad teeters, Israel prepares for battle to secure chemical weapons

Now, lets see....don't Ramadan end about the middle of August.

David Down Under said...

So what do Chik-fil-a sell? Chick Pea based products?

Ally said...

DUU-Chick fil a is a fast food restaurant chain. They are owned by Christians and they have really good chucken sandwiches. They are closed on Sundays so their employees can go to church and have a day of rest and worship.
The president of the chain did an interview recently where he talked about how happy he was being married to his sweetheart for so long and how almost all of his cohorts were also married to their first wives. No divorces. And that he supports traditional marriage.
Not one word was uttered about homosexuals or gay marriage or anything even close to it. But the gays have initiated feeding frenzy of media circus. They are boycotting the restaurants and have convinced the general public this man is some anti gay hitler and are having"kissins" where they go to the restsurants and buy a small drink and makeour and findle each other for an hour or
Two.They even have the sesame street muppet people involved.
The government is starting to arrest and put people in jail for having church in their homes here in the u.s. By hook or crook.
I try not to do fast food either but their chargrilled samwich is ok for you and their salads are good and fruit salad also and icetea isnt bad for you.
Its just bad, this whole thing is based on a lie and the gays are just destroying this Christian run business. Its crazy, its so out of control, its like THE BIG THING in the news here. There is no reasoning to it. In the old days, it would have been called "lynch mob"

Anonymous said...

In any case, the argument here means
nothing. WHY ?? Cause bulls have
the upper hand in stocks.

GOING FORWARD, one of TWO things
will happen. the dow will rally
ON AND ON, take out 13, 339 in the
near future and DELAY THE END
like your head will spin.

Or we turn around next week and
start to crash. Stocks are way too
HIGH now for games. Bulls should
realize this. THEY NEED TO PERFORM,
and what I mean is to get up there, take out 13, 339 and keep going.

Otherwise, IT ENDS.....!!!!

once they put this market above 13,000 last nite, the die was cast.


Either they take OUT 13, 339 and
UP UP and AWAY.....or we turn here
and crash. There really ARE NO
OTHER OPTIONS according to EWI.

So what will it be ??

Hey, throw the dice, I do NOT
know. But what i do KNOW is that
a decision will BE MADE next
week. that is VERY CLEAR....

Stephen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Scott said...

Thats false teaching. And very easily dispelled.

When Apostle Paul wrote about the Trumpet call, in 1 Thessalonians, the book of Revelation hadn't even been written (or even thought of for that matter)...That trumpet call bears no relation whatsoever to the trumpet calls of revelation. There is no linkage there. There were many many trumpet calls in the Bible.

Now to what really matters - if someone isn't pre-trib they need to be able to answer the following questions (which I have yet to see answered in my 30+ years of studying prophecy:

- If Jesus already took the wrath for Believers (His Bride) - then why would believers have to face God's wrath again (being part of the Tribulation, which is God's wrath on an unrepentant world) ?

How does one reconcile that one?

Did Jesus NOT die for our sins and take God's wrath FOR US on the cross? If so, why would we have to face God's wrath?

- What was meant in I Thess 1:10 when we were given instructions to "Wait" for Jesus, "who rescues us FROM the coming wrath?"

- What was meant in Rev 3:10 when we see that we are saved "from the hour of Trial"

- Why is there no mention of the church in Rev 6-18, which described the Tribulation in great detail. Why is there no mention of the Church?

- Why is the Church seen in Rev 19, just before the second coming, cleansed and wearing white?

Why did John ascend to heaven, in a parallel to the Rapture at the end of the church age - as described in Rev 2-3? Was that just a coincidence?

- Who are the 24 elders, as seen by John in Rev 4, who are wearing crowns and clothed in pure white? Who, at this point in chronology would have been purified and had received crowns if not the church?

- What did John see in Rev 4 when he saw the 7 Lamps blazing when he first entered heaven? What did that represent? (hint - see Rev 1:20 for the answer)

- How do you reconcile the doctrine of imminence if the Church isn't raptured until after the Tribulation begins? (because if the Tribulation happens first, then there is no Imminent coming)

- What did Paul mean in 1 Thess 5:9 when he stated that "God did not appoint us to the wrath"?

This are just a few points that never receive an adequate answer - if any at all.

Caver said...

Ally and Dave DU,
Around here this mess with Chick-Fil-A has done nothing but enhance them. I went last night at 8 pm and the line to the drive up window stretched around the entire store.

They are busting open with the business. They are busy anyway, but the support is overwhelming....whole families just coming in and spending an hour or so.

Dave Down Under said...

Hey Scott, I have a question or two?

If Christians aren't supposed to be on the receiving end of Gods anger during the tribulation, then why do the Christians left behind have to suffer through it? A Christian is a Christian. If God were serious about rescuing His Children and making sure they don't go through His wrath then Jesus is a liar because He said that He would keep us (Christians) from the hour of trial which is to come upon the world. Are the tribulation Christians of lessor value? are they seen as the poor suckers who just have to "soldier on"?

How come the Bible doesn't describe a period in human history when humanity will be without children. Logically speaking, God should be taking all the children up into heaven as they are innocent of the evil they are born into and donot know right from wrong. This is a major catostrophic event for families and you would think the Bible would record such a major upheaval in the history of God's dealings with humanity in His anger.

Why do God's judgements on humanity have to actually affect us at all? Doesn't God say that He will protect us from all danger? Doesn't He say that we will only see our enemies drop around us. And any anger that does come from God will be directed back to the newly established Christians in the form of retaliation for Gods harshness on sinful, unrepentant humanity, so that will be classed Christian genocide in which Jesus says to jump for joy for "so pursecuted they the prophets that were before you". So my point is persecution will happen regardless
if God starts it or not and persecution is not a sign of God's wrath but it's what we will face because of our faith.

Which brings me to John 17:14-15 In particular v15, "I'm not asking that you take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one". God can still deliver us from the hour of trial whilst we are still here. Wether we're raptured or not during the tribulation it glorifies God to protect us, even more so in tight, seemingly impossible situations.

Anyway, these are just a few curly questions which any sain, searching Christian should ask to test everything.

So Scott, see how ya go with them! Hahaha!!

ChristineInCleveland said...

Is it me, or does this sound like a "different" Dave Down Under than posted above at 6:15pm?? Looks like old Lucifer is on the attack again.... Geez

Dave Down Under said...

Rest assured Christine those questions are only designed to stimulate some healthy debating. Scott doesnt have to answer them. Their just questions I have in the back of mind.

I know everyone's shell shocked but they're my questions, genuine at that.


Scott said...


The Church age ends at the time of the Rapture, just as the "age" for the Nation of Israel ends at the end of the Tribulation.

Those who come to Christ during the Tribulation are not considered as part of the Church. See this as a "second Chance" for those who were not raptured.

No, the Christians who come to Christ during the Tribulation are not "lesser" Christians, but they are those who refused to come to Christ until God revealed Himself during the Tribulation via the Two Witnesses (miracles), the Angels proclaiming the Gospel and the 144,000 witnesses. Its a different dispenation entirely.

You could make the same argument regarding the Christians who existed during the Roman Empire. Were these "lesser" Christians in your view?

Your logic is sorely lacking.

By your logic, Christians who are persecuted now, in other countries would be "lesser" Christians than those in America who are not overtly persecuted - are those "lesser" Christians?

Who doesn't God protect those Christians, while protecting us? It would be the same "logic".

No, God doesn't say that He will protect us from "All Danger" - where do you get that?

As far as the Hour of trial - you are incorrect. Saving us "From The Hour Of Trial" - if you dissect the greek means that He will keep us from THAT TIME PERIOD entirely, not protect us through it - in fact that is the whole point of that scripture, you are missing the point completely.

I also LOVE how you continue to say what God "Should be doing"...Like you have it figured out, with your human brain, and you can tell God what "He Should Be Doing". Come on.

All of the above reveals the weakness in your arguments.

Why not debate this based on the SCRIPTURES and not what you think God should be doing based on YOUR logic?

You answered NONE of the questions I posed.

Scott said...

Additionally, your attitude is terrible. What in the world is "See how ya gow ith the,? HAHAHA" - this isn;t a joke, this is very serious - it's God's very words we are discussing and its not a joke. I really don't understand your vitriolic attitude with this.

Scott said...

Shell shocked??? At your attempts to impose your personal logic, all of which doesn not hold ANY logic at all, as "Shell shocked" - my goodness. I've seen FAR better attempts to shoot down the pre-trib rapture! Shell shocked? Oh my. That sounds pretty arrogant, and very consistent with your "hahaha" or whatever that was. I guess if the argument is weak, one must resort to things like that (?)

Why don't you take up each of my questions posed above and discuss them individually BASED ON SCRIPTURES and not what you "think God should do"?

Scott said...

The persecution Jesus was referring to was the persecution faced by Christians through time - it has nOTHING to do with the gathering up whatsoever.

Again - lets put the BASIC scriptures which point to a pre-trib rapture in view and discuss THEM rather than irrelevant, tangential points?

And one more question:
(and those who have been on this blog a while already have seen this over and over and over)

Why is it you guys NEVER EVER engage in a discussion of those basic scriptures (the ones I have outlines above) and ALWAYS devolve into a meaningless "debate" around meaningless irrelevant ideas which are not included in these basic scriptures.

We've seen it here on this blog - it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME - w/o any exceptions.

Why is that?

Anonymous said...

how disheartening now dave? so sad.

Jec said...

Brother Dave Down Under,

Let me see if I can help with some of thoses Q's you have.

On the first Q about Christians being left behind to face God's anger is false. There will not be a single Christian in all the world who will be left behind, as they will all be caught up in the clouds with Jesus and will be proceeded by the dead in Christ but arriving the same time. No stragglers or slow pokes here! The only ones left behind will be non-believers. These would be fence sitters, who put off making a decision for Christ, and rejectors of the Truth of Christ as the ONLY means for salvation. Btw, these fence sitters will become the new believers seconds after the rapture. It won't be God's anger, but God's wrath that will be poured out during this next 7 years. The age of grace is gone and a new dispensation has taken over and it is all focued on the Jewish people. In the big picture of death and destruction during this time, there will be the greatest number who will be saved....more than at any time in history. A number in which no one will be able to count! God's grace and mercy is still evident during this terrible time the world still has to face.

As for the babies after the Rapture, I think we are on the same page. But there was a time in history when everything was wiped off the face of the planet including babies. The Flood! Where do you think these inocent babies and children under the age of accountability went to when they were destroyed in the flood? Heaven or Hell? The message of the Cross is so simple that even a child understands. Matthew 11:25 says: At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Jesus mentioned two kinds of people in his prayer above: the “wise” arrogant in their own knowledge-and the “babes”-humbly open to receive the truth of God's Word. Are we wise in our own eyes, or do we seek the truth in childlike faith, realizing that only God holds all the answers? Also in Matthew 19:14it says: Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” This verse is one of the key verses many Christians believe that shows that at the very moment of the Rapture, that all children under the age of accountability will be raptured along with all of the saints dead or alive. God will not pour out His wrath on the orld, if my interpretation is correct, until after the Rapture occurs.

As for God's judgment we will not be here to see it. We are presently in the age of Grace and a few minutes away from the Rapture. During the time of the Tribulation period, yes there will be wrath and judgment and it is for His great bring as many as possible to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, God would never have sent the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, the 2 Witnesses, or the 3 angels to witness to the world. Instead His grace and mercy is evident still.

Revelation 14: 6Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." And also in verse 12: This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

Scott said...

Well done JEC - thanks for that input

Unknown said...

Scott... as I said before, I really didn't want to get into an argument on this subject. I love what you are doing with your blog, and I hope many many people read your posts and take heed. The one good thing about this subject is that with either belief, I don't see it affecting salvation. If I'm doing what the Father and Jesus have instructed me to do, and I get taken up early... awesome! If I'm doing what the Father and Jesus have instructed me to do, and I see horrible things but stay faithful to death... well, not as awesome, but I still plan to make it.

That being said, I think our biggest difference is our premise. I don't believe that the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God on Christians at all... it is the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God comes in the form of the 7 bowls poured out on the ones who receive the mark of the beast. The death of the saints has not been the wrath of God, but of the former and future anitchrists.

The 5th seal of Revelation shows that the saints that had been previously slain for their belief wake up and ask when their deaths will be avenged. They are told to sleep a little while longer until the time when their brethren would be killed in the same way:

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This will probably be my last post on this because we will probably have to agree to disagree. We can compare notes when we are caught up with Him in the air... whether before or after the tribulation.

Keep posting brother!!!

GG said...

Hi Everyone~

Jec and Scott- Thank you both for redirecting our focus back to what is true and correct by explanation with scripture. The HS is over both of you right now to help in this discussion.

I am beside myself right now about what is happening in these last days. Rick, while it is very great to see you here, I do not think it is fair to come on in, throw some statements out and then depart without at least offering up some explanations to those questions that our host had? This is the same behavior we have seen in others who were not genuine, please tell me you are not of that type of mindset?

It seems to me, that the general mindset is that it is OK to make statements (in general to us all) but not back them up with proper use of scripture? Is that fair to Christians and even to non-believers right now?

If I was new coming here and digested these conversations in the last 24 hours, I would be confused as to which way is the right way. Brother Dave, what has happened? From the time you came here you were so grounded in the word, I am so confused as to why the heckling effect to ask such serious questions to our host? I don't mean that in a bad way but you have me wondering is this how you felt all along? What is with the 2:00 am hour on all these topics?

I want nothing but the best for us all, but in all fairness, I would like some answers from these who cast doubt to Scott's questions. He is kind enough to leave your posts up, why is it you can't be kind enough to share your theology of these scriptures?

Have a blessed day all!! May we keep focusing in the mindset of the Lord and not that of man. Praying for you Scott and the blog family!!


Unknown said...

GG... I am absolutely not of that mindset. I explained that the premise of Scott and myself were totally different, which automatically answers some of those questions. If you would like me to address each of the questions, I will be glad to do that... just give me a little time since I am short on it today. I'm sorry I gave the impression that I was a hit and run poster. I just hadn't intended a debate... but I guess if it's a healthy and respectful one, it shouldn't be a problem right?

I will get back with you on this. Thanks for addressing your concerns about my motives.


GG said...


Yes, please that would be the most considerate thing for us all. Scott has a very busy life and makes and takes the time to supply our needs scripturally. I feel he and us deserve a fair balance to sort this out properly.


Anonymous said...

Just an opinion on scott's Q's.
1. the last trumpet call of apostle paul.
Scott statement that the book of revelation hadn't even written at that time might be right. Besides who definitely know for sure of the timing when the books are written??? Having said that, Det 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet...from many scholars this Prophet they say is Jesus.
Eventhough new testament had not yet been written yet God had said to them about this prophet. Likewise the trumpet call of paul is a prophetic in nature, which have future application.
If this is not the last trumpet of revelation, what is this trumpet? Maybe that is the question that need an answer?

2. Question regarding wrath of God
Jesus indeed took the wrath for us, no question about it. We are not to face God Wrath that is the undeniable truth.
BUt is the Wrath of God = 7 Years tribulation?
If it is the 7 years of tribulation, then we are caught away before that 7 years even started.
However without a definite equation given in the bible that the x=y, all are just speculation.
The last week of Daniel maybe 7 years, but is that the tribulation period, furthermore is that the wrath of God?
WHat we consider tribulation then? when we are persecuted are we entering the wrath of God? Note that the early believers were also killed and persecuted?
how about hunger, famine, how about wars (remeber ww1 and ww2 we are still here? how about if ww3 comes do we consider that the start of Wrath of God, and ww1and ww2 was not?
how about earthquakes, etc.
As Scott said "...God wrath on un an unrepentant world" God wrath is poured only to the unrepentant, those who repent and trust in the Lord will not taste the wrath of God. That is To answer then 1 thess 1;10 and Rev 3:10.
If we are told to wait, that means He is coming, When? as posted by scott, the groom will send his best amn and other escorts to light the way probably, are these angelic, or are these the two witnesses? you are free to choose what to believe.
3. Why is there no mentioned of church in rev 6-18?
scott i right no word "church" can be found between that verses, likewise there is no letter to churches in the USA in the first 5 verses.
In the same manner that from Genesis to malachi there is no mention of church in the wilderness and was just mentioned in Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness...
maybe a better way to approach this is, what is the church made of?
Acts 2:47 ...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 20:28 feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood"
So if you are saved then you are added to the church as Jesus has purchased you with his own blood.
If you are not part of the church who will purchase you?
Are all Jews saints? are the member of the church gentiles only? Do not forget we are only grafted in the vine. Having said that, there is neither Greek nor Jew but christ is all. col 3:12 Put on therefore , as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind....
simply to answer this, those saints whose names are written in the book of life (who are obviously are saved and are automatically added to the chuch ) the word church is not there, you just need to see who their members are.
see part 2

Scott said...

Chapter 5 and 6 are references to the Tribulation Saints - ie, those who come to Christ after the Tribulation begins. This has nothing to do with the Church.

Scott said...

1. There is excellent historical information as to the various timing of the writing of the various books of the NT. Its pretty clear and easy to determine that the Book of Revelation was written long after the letters to the Thessalonians. So why would the Apostle Paul have made a reference to the 7 Trumpets of Revelation when it hadn't even been written yet?

Additionally, the book of Revelation as coming from Christ hadn't been proclaimed yet - until that moment that Jesus appeared to John at Patmos. Hence "The Revelation".

So you are incorrect on both premises there...

No on to the rest...

Oh - before I forget...There are MANY other instances of trumpet blasts throughput the Bible, yet you arbitrarily pick one that doesn't even apply

Are you aware that the Israelis would have a series of trumpet blasts when they were departing a location during the Exodus? The last blast being a prolonged one, notifying everyone that they were now moving camp? (ie the previous blasts were warnings)...Or the trumpet blasts at the various "watches" by the Roman guards?

I could go on and on as far as the different trumpet blasts

Scott said...

2. Your points on #2 were scrambled and somewhat hard to determine specifically but I'll do what I can :)

Its the last 7 years of the 490 years declared to Israel in Daniel 9:24 we get the basis for the 490 years. There are 7 remaining.

It is also called "The Time OF Jacob's Trouble" which also serves to identify the 7 year time period. It begins at the proclamation by the AC that he is god. (9:27). This comes after the "seven sevens and sixty-two sevens" - the time frame that abruptly stopped at Passion week. With 7 years remaining.

Your description of the generation birth pains has no relevance to the topic (or I don't understand the point)...Yes, we know that throughout the period there will be increasing signs - like birthpains - all of which will considerably worsen during the Tribulation. No where in the Bible say that these signs were only in the Tribulation - not at all - these signs are to exist for the entirety of the generation - but certainly much much worse during the Trib.

YEs - the second after the Rapture the world will be those who have not repented and come to Christ.

Then, those who do come to Christ during the tribulation will face the same world that everyone else does during that period.

Scott said...

3. Oh my goodness. Are you serious? You don't understand the difference in the Church Saints and Old Testament "saints" ?

And as far as Chapter 6- 18 - I wasn't expecting a reference to the literal words "the church" (Thats usually obvious and taken for granted in these discussions - this is a point that I can't believe we're having a discussion - ie, THIS basic of a level....Honestly - and I mean no offense, but please do some homework on the topic so we can take it to a higher level)

Instead of playing a silly semantics game - please show me a REFERENCE to the Church in chapter 6-18.

Beyond that, I don't even know what your point is in #3....

Anonymous said...

Anony, Why is there no mentioned of church in rev 6-18?
Scott is saying it is Chapters 6 through 18, not Rev 3:6-18!
Because the church is taken up at Rev 4:1 and is not seen again until rev 19 and USA does not count in any prophecy!

Anonymous said...

4. Why is the church seen in rev 19, just before the 2nd coming.
I personally believed that there is a period between the rapture and the physical descends of the Lamb at mt. of Olives. How long is that period, No one knows.
5. Why did John ascend to heaven, simple answer He was told to come up.
6. Who are the 24 elders as seen by John?
Who knows, what their names are? but I can tell you this Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. 53 and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.
Where they went after that? the bible does not explicitly said.
One can make a theory based on heb 9:27 it is appointed for men to die once... These saints were probably long dead, decayed and were given a glorified body after Jesus resurrection and probably the elders you were looking.
6. What did John see in rev 4, You have given the answer why bother. also look Rev 1:4, rev 3:1, rev 5:6.
7, How do you reconcile the doctrine of imminence.
The period we are talking is just 7 years, it could happen in any of our lifetime. It could have happen in early believers lifetime, but even paul letter to timothy who by the way was in thessalonica 1 tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in latter times some shall depart from faith...
and peter talks of scoffers in the last days in 2pet 3:3.
The apotles has warned us of this things and even Jesus gave us signs. Now the rapture may hapen before or after that seven years,
Before provided that the 7 years is the wrath of God, After tribulation, provided that the wrath of God is after that.
but 7 years is nothing and everyone can say he is coming, I will "Wait" but things will come in the last days as paul reminded the thessalonians. the departing away from faith (1 tim 4:1) and the man of sin be revealed.

The last Q i think has already been answered in my first post).

I have no intention to argue, just posted an opinion.


Dave Down Under said...

Look I sincerely appologise to all force hats happened here.

My questions were genuine questions from an everyday person (myself). I had no intentions of offending anyone, although I should have seen it coming.

Brother Scott, I sinceley admire your 30 plus years in your studies but, your sure lack grace when it comes to dealing with the unlearned. They were genuine questions and questions I was hoping you of all people could answer. How on earth do you expect to minister to the newly converted who have stupid, illogical questions like mine who are searching. And no Scott I haven't flipped, lost my marbles or what ever else people who dare to speak up maybe accused of who go against the grain.

Jec, thankyou for your understanding.

Anyway once again, my appologies to all.


See y'all in heaven.

Scott said...

Go back and look at this thread. Now look at the ending of your first post and your entire second post. Now look above and see if there was anything to solicit that attitude. It was Inflammatory and unnecessary sarcastic. That set the tone and it came from you. Just stating facts.

Anon - you aren't answering the questions. Who, at this point in chronology (Rev 4) would have received the victors crowns and have been purified in white garments, if not a post-raptured church who has experienced the Bema judgment?

Your answer to #4 is "I personally believed"...Enough said to that.

The Nation of Israel won't receive their glorified bodies until after the Tribulation has ended; same with those who come to Christ during the Tribulation (see Daniel 12:1-2 and Revelation 20:4-6) Therefore your speculation on that incorrect. Only the Church will have rec'd their glorified bodies, in heaven at the time of the Tribulation.

John saw a representation of the Church twice in Rev 4; once w the 24 elders and with the 7 lampstands. Using the tried and true methods of a literal interpretation, we let the bible interpret itself - and the most recent explanation is in Rev 1:19:

"The Mystery this: The Seven Lampstands Are The Seven Churches"....We don't have to speculate as to what John saw, in heaven, at the beginning of the Tribulation - we are told. It was the Seven (all) Churches. Period.

Scott said...

As far as #7 above, I've read it three times and I have no idea what point you are attempting to make, so I can't respond to that one

DUU said...

Your reaction is understandable. And the "hahaha" was attempt to let you know that the questioning is friendly. But we can't read minds so I'm moving on.


Scott said...

I was looking at "Curly questions" as "any sane, searching Christian should make" (those who don't ask those specific questions are somehow 'insane'?)

Followed by "See how ya do with them" "HAHAHAH"

To me, that seemed like taunting - perhaps I misinterpreted. I'm honestly not used to such language when discussing scripture.

Then the suggestion that people would be "Shell-shocked" at these questions seemed to confirm that to me - but if I am mistaken, then my sincere apologies.

Dave Down Under said...

When I said that I know everyone is shell-shocked I was referring to everyone being worn out by anon and their persistent posting. I was thinking though that some 'might' be surprised to see my line of questioning and that I have joined the 'anon ranks' of stupidity.

As I said to Christine, these are serious questions and anyone who takes a leading in scriptural topics really should have an answer (gentlly with patience) for those of us who don't quite get it.

I thought Scott had these topics covered, non of us are perfect.

Anyway as I said I'm moving on, do I've got to keep my word. See you all in heaven.

Anonymous said...

are you calling all anons stupid then

R.G. said...

Dave, I understood your comment for what it was and was quite surprised by Scott's response. I have seen the comments on this blog become more adversarial and less tolerant over the last few months and where I used to find peoples comments interesting and thought provoking, I now just find strife and discord. This is not edifying and so I too am moving on. One final thought, some commenters in here have carpet bombed the place in their crusade to get the one they are after, This has resulted in hurt among certain people who held you in high regard. very sad.

Unknown said...

OK GG... here's what you asked for. Sorry this is a long one, but there were a lot of questions. I have to break it up into I think 3 posts because of character limits.

(S)= Scott’s questions
(R) = Rick’s answers

(S) When Apostle Paul wrote about the Trumpet call, in 1 Thessalonians, the book of Revelation hadn't even been written (or even thought of for that matter)...That trumpet call bears no relation whatsoever to the trumpet calls of revelation. There is no linkage there. There were many many trumpet calls in the Bible.
(R) It doesn’t matter that Revelation was written after Thes. Jesus expounded on many things to the disciples that were never written:
Mark 4:34: But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Do you really believe that in the entire amount of time he spent with the disciples, that a whole lot more wasn’t said than what is written in the gospels? There are many insights that are given by the apostles that we never see in the gospels. They knew a lot more things that we still don’t know.
I Thes. absolutely does relate to the 7th and last trumpet in Rev.

I Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Notice: then... after the 1st resurrection, we which are alive and remain will join the dead that were just resurrected.. in the 1st resurrection.
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So does I Cor.

I Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Same timing - At the last trump. Putting the scriptures together helps fill in the puzzle of Revelation... just like Daniel along with Revelation. I agree that there are many instances of trumpets, but only a very few are end time trumpets.

I Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(S) Now to what really matters - if someone isn't pre-trib they need to be able to answer the following questions (which I have yet to see answered in my 30+ years of studying prophecy:

- If Jesus already took the wrath for Believers (His Bride) - then why would believers have to face God's wrath again (being part of the Tribulation, which is God's wrath on an unrepentant world) ? 

How does one reconcile that one?
(R) God’s wrath is never poured out on faithful Christians or followers. We are punished sometimes for straying, but as a father punishes... never in wrath. He always shows that to be reserved for the ones who refuse to turn to Him... example... those who receive the mark of the beast are the ones that the wrath of God will be poured out on in Rev. 17. The wrath on the people of God is clearly not from God, but from Satan.

(S) Did Jesus NOT die for our sins and take God's wrath FOR US on the cross? If so, why would we have to face God's wrath?

(R) Same answer about the wrath of God vs. Satan.

Unknown said...

Great! It's not letting me post any more because of character count. What does it mean: You can use some HTML tags?

GG said...

Hi Rick~

Thank you for sincerely taking the time to present your thoughts so we can look at those views together.

This is a moment where I do use the help of the HS and the help of the more seasoned vets here to teach me as well :) I have been with Scott's blog for well over a year and sincerely trust his scriptural views and context that pertain to these last day events. it is nice to see someone come back and finally address those tough questions he poses to share and see what our differences truly are, for that I thank you.

Dave, I am not sure what is happening, but I promise I will be praying for you too OK? I don't agree with RG about the intent because the exclamation marks along with what I felt was a lob a bomb verbiage and good luck with that kind of approach left it with a feeling of" in your face". This isn't about the group and attacks but how we ourselves come across from the outset to start any possible trouble. As we know it all starts with us first, searching the intent of the heart :)

I am glad to hear from you that wasn't the intent at all. I always took your postings as firmly planted in the word of God, so it was a surprise to me that was even a question you struggle with to cause you to sway. That is why I asked what has been happening. I know you have been through a lot over the past few months and wanted to make sure there was no backsliding in those areas of scripture.

With that, we will keep praying and all the answers will be laid out and delivered according to the word of the God.

God Bless


GG said...


Did you try putting it on a word doc and then split it up that way? That may work.


Unknown said...

GG, Yes I wrote it all on a word doc, but there is something like a 4093 character count. I was splitting it up into 3 posts, but for some reason, when I tried to post the 2nd one, it wouldn't let me. I'm going to try again... maybe it was my mistake.

Unknown said...


(S) What was meant in I Thess 1:10 when we were given instructions to "Wait" for Jesus, "who rescues us FROM the coming wrath?"
(R) Why does rescue have to mean rapture and taken away into heaven? God rescued and protected His people all throughout the OT without taking them up into heaven. The people of God will be protected:
Rev. 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The other time the term wings of an eagle was used was when God brought Israel out of Egypt... not literally flying in the air.
Ex. 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles 'wings, and brought you unto myself.
Also Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
This is the 3-1/2 final years of the tribulation while the antichrist rules.
It is Satan whose wrath is being talked about... not God’s:
Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So why would Jesus need to talk about what to look for and know when to flee to the wilderness if the people he is addressing are already gone? He’s giving the signs of when to get out and rely on God’s protection.

Mat. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Why would this make any difference if the elect are already taken up to heaven? Why would the days need to be shortened for their sake? They’ve already been gone from all of that for quite awhile right?

(S) What was meant in Rev 3:10 when we see that we are saved "from the hour of Trial"
(R) Again, why does “saved from the hour of trial” have to mean taken up into heaven? The word for trial is also translated as “temptation”. Jesus taught us to pray that we are not lead into temptation, and to deliver us from the evil one.

(S) Why is there no mention of the church in Rev 6-18, which described the Tribulation in great detail. Why is there no mention of the Church?
(R)The woman of Rev. 12 are the followers of God... or the church. There is a remnant left behind, and for whatever reason didn’t make the escape that the larger part of the church did. Why the remnant got separated from the main group is not explained, but it looks like they are some of the ones that will be killed because of not receiving the mark of the beast. Satan is definitely ticked off at them.

Unknown said...

Yay... it worked... continued:

(S) Why is the Church seen in Rev 19, just before the second coming, cleansed and wearing white? 

(R)purified and cleansed from all blemishes, made blameless in preparation for the wedding.

(S) Why did John ascend to heaven, in a parallel to the Rapture at the end of the church age - as described in Rev 2-3? Was that just a coincidence?

(R) Not sure I understand. Do you mean Rev. 4:1? He was told to come up in the vision to be shown the things that were coming. This has no connection to the rapture. It was just the vantage point that he would be seeing things from.

(S) Who are the 24 elders, as seen by John in Rev 4, who are wearing crowns and clothed in pure white? Who, at this point in chronology would have been purified and had received crowns if not the church?

(R) No one knows. There is only speculation as to who they were. Possibly the ones resurrected at the moment of Jesus’ death who walked through the streets. Could those have been the firstfruits offering of Jesus to the Father? I have no idea.

(S) What did John see in Rev 4 when he saw the 7 Lamps blazing when he first entered heaven? What did that represent? (hint - see Rev 1:20 for the answer)

(R) The seven churches. Some of this is compliments of what the churches have done well. But it is mostly warnings that they had better get it together before it’s too late. They are sternly being warned to repent and turn back to God on the things He has against them. It seems that there will come a point where it will be too late... example: Rev. 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
“Come upon thee” is not a good thing. The Greek is “come against you”. So the whole point of the 7 lamp stands is to give warning. There is nothing here at all about being caught up or raptured before Jesus returns.
How do you reconcile the doctrine of imminence if the Church isn't raptured until after the Tribulation begins? (because if the Tribulation happens first, then there is no Imminent coming)
(R) I don’t know what you mean. There definitely IS an imminent coming after the tribulation:
Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
What did Paul mean in 1 Thess 5:9 when he stated that "God did not appoint us to the wrath"?

(R) Same answer as before... not appointed unto the wrath of God. The tribulation again is the wrath of Satan.

(S) This are just a few points that never receive an adequate answer - if any at all.

There you go. Scott, I'm guessing these answers won't change your mind, as your questions haven't changed mine. As I said before... I'll see you at the rapture either before or after the trib, and we can compare notes. Love you brother!

Scott said...


Your cornerstone to this argument pins everything on your interpretation that the "trumpet call" of 1 Thess 4:16 is the same as the last trumpet of Revelation and that is pure speculation. There are no scriptures which indicate that its the same.

Your answer to that is

"Jesus expounded on many things that weren't written"

I'm sorry, but for me, that isn't adequate and far from convincing. Now if you could produce a scripture that links these "trumpet calls" we'd have a basis for discussion, but your personal speculation just isn't enough for me.

There is absolutely no biblical proof that the trumpet call at the time of the rapture has ANY link to the trumpets of Revelation. None. Nada.

In fact, david Jeremiah makes a very strong argument that we are simply getting three different ways to tell us that there will be a "calling" - some audible calling and it is described in three ways. (Loud command, voice of an archangel, trumpet call)

And I have to disagree on the idea you state that its not relevant that Revelation was written long after 1 Thessalonians.

How would Paul have even known that the 7 trumpets of revelation were even in existance?

Jesus revealed this to John at Patmos

Look at the intro - there is no suggestion that this was ever revealed to anypne prior to Jesus' revealing this to John, hence "The Revelation Of Jesus Christ"..If it had been taught before, it wouldn't be the "Revelation of Jesus"

Look at the Intro:

"The Revelation of JEsus Christ which God gave him to show his servants what soon must take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John who testifies to everything he saw - that is, the world of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. "

To suggest that this was something that Paul would have known is simply speculation and not confirmed by the scriptures.

So it is HIGHLY germane that Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians years before this Revelation was given to John at Patmos

This is the problem with your POV - it requires speculation on top of speculation

Scott said...

1 Thessalonians 1:10. The word for "delivered" is present tense participle derived from the verb "rhuomai"...This verb means to "draw or snatch out to oneself. To rescue, to save, to "draw to one's self". - often in an "act of power".

The word "from" (in delivered from, in the passage under discussion) - comes from "ek", which is used to denote "separation"...This word is typically used with "verbs of motion" such as "rhuomai", as seen above.

Thus, combining the above greek words, we can see that Paul was referring to a deliverance "from" - or in Showers words:

"delivering church saints from future wrath by an act of power - that act being the act of drawing or snatching them out to Himself"

Scott said...

Regarding John's ascension in chapter 4...Don't you see this?

The book of Revelation is a chronology from the Church Age (ch 2-3) and then chapter 4 begins with "AFTER THIS" - ie, after what was just described, the Church Age.

And then what happens? John ascends to Heaven in a manner hich parallels the Rapture. Then he sees not one, but two representations of the church.

Then we have the Tribulation described in chapter 6-18....

Then the Church is seen (again) in Heaven, just before the second coming - seen in Ch 19.

Then ch 20 gives us the Mill reign, and then we see New Jerusalem

Its all prefect chronology.

Thats what I mean by John's ascension in Chapter 4. Its in perfect harmony with a pre-trib rapture

Scott said...

The Bema judgment is the first judgment. There is no group other than the 24 elders who would have been purified by this or who would have received the crowns which are rewarded at Bema.

As mentioned before, the OT saints won't receive their glorified bodies until after the Tribulation.

Waterer said...

Dear Dave down Under,

I remember, many years ago being in a conferance ( What Ever Happened to the Human Race with Francis Schaeffer in Atlanta. He was introducing the video series and speaking all over the place. During the Q and A time different people came to the mikes around the auditorium to pose their questions. Dr. Schaeffer answered so quickly and at times even cutting off the questions midstream by his entrance into the answers. We were kind of taken aback. He then explained that all ofus think our questions are original because they are OUR questions and important to us. He then said having taught so many for so long he didn't have the time or energy to listen to the end anymore because he has heard all these questions before..
He asked us to bear with him and take what we could.
I think one of the hardest things about this mode of conversing is that we cannot hear intonations and expressions. So much is lost that way.
I would imagine that Scott is trying to protect the integrity of his site and the questions that are real. Yours are , no doubt, but perhgaps the time for presenting things for "debate" is past. Too many things are happening and there are so many resources for studying these topics now. Scott is sincere in answering questions from the heart, and I'm sure he would want yours to be answered too.

We will be diminished if you leave. Please don't. Let's think of one another as more important than ourselves and stay the COURSE!
Let's all hold Scott up in prayer too. This is really hard work and unseen verbal "winks" come across as sarcasm. It wasn't intended but , there it is. Let's start anew tomorrow.
Our unity in Jesus is what proves to the world that we are His disciples. It was His dearest hope and prayer for us. Don't go.

Scott said...

You said "The woman of Revelation 12 are the followers of God...Or the church..."

I must admit, this is the first time I have ever heard that.

Revelation 12 is strictly about the nation of Israel, there is no church in view here at all. even your NIV study bible will say that.

Do you have any scriptural basis to see the Church in Rev 12, beyond speculation?

There is "a remnant left behind"?


"Why the remnant got left behind is not explained"

-- Then where do you come up with that? I don't think its a good idea (again) to speculate. There is no scripture to support this. None.

Even though it doesn't even apply here, you are again confusing the Church (bride of Christ) with believers who come to Christ during the Tribulation

Again, I haven't ever read any commentary where someone saw the Church in Rev 12 FWIW

Scott said...

Matthew 24:15 was written to the Jews and new Christians who are living in Jerusalem at the time of the AOD - this has nothing to do with the Church or the Rapture

Scott said...

You stated "The Tribulation is the wrath of satan"

wow...Lets go back and read Revelation

The whole point of Revelation 5 is to reveal how only Jesus is worthy to open the scroll:

"You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals because you were slain and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation..."

Rev 6:1 "I watched as the Lamb opened the first seal of the seven seals"

I don't see Satan in this. God dictates the 21 judgments of Revelation, not Satan.

Scott said...

As Cooper so eloquently stated "If plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense"

Look at the simplicity and clarity of this (in fact, it doesn't get much more straightforward than this)

Revelation 4:5 "Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God"

Now back to Revelation 1: "The mystery of the seven golden lampstands...and the seven lampstands are the seven churches"

Why read more into this beautiful simplicity?

(now don't get me wrong...this is WAY down my list for proof of a pre-trib rapture, but its still there in plain english)

Scott said...

As far as Imminence - If it is something that happens after the Tribulation, it isn't imminent. The imminent return was preached in the early church, and to all believers of all time. It wasn't something to be confined to the Tribulation - there is no basis of that in the scripture at all.

The doctrine of imminence was key to early believers - in fact that was the basic reason for 1-2 Thessalonians - to clarify these teachings.

So, again, it can't be "imminent" if destined to occur during the Tribulation (for the simple reason that the tribulation would have to occur first)

The second Coming is NOT an imminent event - as a matter of fact, if someone discovers and learns prophecy during the Tribulation, they will be able to calculate the timing of the second coming very very very closely. That isn't imminent by any means,

Only a pre-trib rapture harmonizes with imminency

Anonymous said...

there are also two lampstand in Rev 11:4.
applying your logic, there is the Church.

Scott said...

completely different scenario. The two (not 7) hadn't just been specifically defined.

Anonymous said...

the seven (7) are also specifically defined churches (like ephesus)
does your church need to be specifically mentioned in Revelation?

just a note on the last trump, if it is the last, then there must be a first, right. simple logic.
then if you have to wait for the first, then its not imminent.

Scott said...

All letters were intended to go to all churches. If you read the letters you can see these instructions at the end of each letter.

Correct - the trumpets of Revelation, if in play (which they are not) would not be imminent. Good point.

Quick question for the people who so vigorously attack the pre-trib rapture:

- Why is attacking this SO important to you? Even to the point of creating strawmen arguments to attack me and others on this site?

- I can predict it every time. If ANY reference is made to the pre-trib rapture, then the conflict, controversy and posters like this come out in DROVES...Why is that? ---> I don't know of ANY pre-trib folks who 'wait in the tall grass' just waiting to pounce on any references to a post-trib, mid-trib or pre-wrath doctrine discussions. Why is that?

- Why do you folks take such sheer delight in attempting to shoot down the "hope" and "encouragement" of the pre-trib rapture? Why is this? Its curious to me.

- Why do you enjoy dividing and causing strife?

- Why is this such an obsession for you? Again, I don't know if a SINGLE pre-trib person who does this ...Why is that? Any ideas?

Enjoy your strife, and enjoy your attempts to steal the joy that comes to those who believe in Jesus' promises to His Bride. I hope its an enjoyable process for you - we'll all have to account for our actions some day

ChristineInCleveland said...

Matthew 13:25
But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came &sowed weeds among the wheat, & went away....
Has anything changed since then? Keep up the good work, Scott! :)

Anonymous said...

looking above this thread, cristine of cleveland ask a question about mat 24, others gave their opinion. you have listed numerous Q which others too gave their opinion.

Anonymous said...

this applies to the trumpet call of apostle paul

Unknown said...

WOW!!! Scott, I have been very respectful to you throughout this entire discussion... which is exactly what it is, a discussion and no where close to an attack. Enjoy my strife and stealing joy? Waiting in the tall grass and ready to pounce? Pre-tribbers wouldn't do that? Sheer delight in shooting down joy? Enjoy dividing and causing strife? If anyone really thinks I have done that, then I'm truly sorry. We will continue to disagree, so it fruitless for me to continue this discussion. Be blessed all.

Anonymous said...

Mike, Scott was not addressing you unless you were the one also posting as anony with all the disjointed questions and logic.

Anonymous said...

That wasn't directed towards you at all, in fact I enjoyed our discussion which was atypical. It was more of a general observation and in context of many of the anon posters who came and attempted to mischaracterize the whole thing


Anonymous said...

why not pick an anon post with time stamp in it.

like Assad, when he see that his wall is crumbling, he thinks that everyone is attacking him, and everyone is his enemy.

Anonymous said...

anon @11:29 am and scott,
I am the one commenting on the lampstand and the last trump. Do you consider my that simple question an attacked?

Re the "last trump" call of Paul.
One is implying this to be the seventh trump of revelation, while scott is arguing that its not for the reason that Revelataion was not yet written when paul mentioned it.. What did that attain, nothing.
Instead of proving the other is wrong why not just solved this mystery.
Let just say paul do not know the seventh trump of revelation and he was not filled by the holy spirit to limit his knowledge of the future when he made the comments, and scott is right when he say revelation was not yet written at that time.
The question still remains, What is this "Last trump" mentioned by paul in his letter?
since scott admits to have more knowledge in the trump calls, what i this "Last trump" scott?
bear in mind that in simple reasoning of succession, when one consider it "last" then there should be "first" one before that.
That would be difficult then because that would put the doctrine of imminence in jeopardy, Because something has to happen before that "last trump"?

asking question is not an attacking, otherwise, cristineincleveland, and scott also is on the attacked mode.

Anonymous said...

Let me apologise for my hastily worded comment to encourage Mike to stay on.
It is beginning to appear that English is not your first language which makes your questions and logic APPEAR to be disjointed.
This makes it very difficult and time consuming to try to understand what you are asking, what your level of bible understanding is, where you are leading to and how to answer you.
I also could not understand much of what you were asking.
There are books that Scott has mentioned before if he wishes to mention again, that will show the logical progression of prophecy that will answer your questions if you study them.
The discussions on this forum topic with you seem to be going in endless circles.
Maybe if you can find a pastor in your area who is well grounded in the pretrib doctrine that might be a more fruitful path to pursue unless you are in an area of persecution.
If that is your case then please continue here and we will try our best to understand you.

Anonymous said...

english is not my first language, but the level of bible understanding is pretty much mature.
one need not to ask the level of understanding to answer the question i post.
Can We get your answer on what is this "last trump"?

Scott said...

Articles on the Trumpets:

Trumpets 1

Trumpets 2

Trumpets 3

Trumpets 4

Anonymous said...

what these articles tells me scott, is you don't know what is this last trump.
i like to comment on some of the articles;
article 1- the fourth sound (resurrection), the author of this articles when acknowledging the 4th trumpet sound as the last trump because of resurrection, he failed to recognise the resurrection of two witnesses at the sounding of the 7th trump, eventhough he rejected that the last is the seventh.
article 1-when the author choose the safest view that the last one the Church will hear on earth (Question what is the first trump that the Church heard)

Article 1&2 - Ram horns
Some scholars say there are two trumpets of God that recall the two horns of the ram caught in the thicket as Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac. They call the Trumpet of Exodus 19:13 the left one, or First Trump, and say that God will call the Israelites back to the Land in the End Times by blowing the right one, or Last Trump.. If this is the case then the Last Trump could be blown at the close of the Battle of Ezekiel 38-39, placing the Rapture at the time of Ezekiel’s battle.

Considering this case, and the woman in revelation 12 is Israel, then the trumpet of revelation make perfect sense.

If exo 19:13 is the first one, then it just confirmed that the church did exist in the wilderness as per acts 7:38.

Article 2, the full number of the gentiles has to come, This destroy then imminency before paul preaches to the gentiles.

Article 3 - just describing when to blow the shofar.

Blowing the trump during feast holidays, means its not imminent during ordinary days.

the articles though rejected the seventh trump as the last trump, but the study unconsciously direct it to the seventh trumpet. and did not provide a clear identity of what they think is the last trump.

What is this last trump biblically.
1. Trump of God not trump of man.
2. to be blown by angels Mat 24:31. Not by man.
The trump based on articles.
3. Tekiah or trump denoting resurrection.
4. trump when God gather Israel from the Land.
5. Last trump to be heard by the Church on Earth.
If one will consider the Church includes Israel of rev 12. The sevent trumpet fits all the above identities.
One can choose the safest, and one can choose the truest.

Anonymous said...

but thank you scott for giving your time in finding those articles.
eventhough you don't know me, you have given me your precious time.

Scott said...

You're welcome, its my pleasure :)