Remember what Stuxnet was for: making centrifuges shut down. And it apparently did manage to make a number of centrifuges shut down. But it hasn’t slowed uranium enrichment. One more time: it hasn’t slowed uranium enrichment. It may at most have slowed the rate of acceleration in uranium enrichment. Stuxnet has had its day, and it didn’t put a significant crimp in Iran’s progress.No reason to take our eyes off the ball here. Iran continues to make progress toward nuclear weapons, and attempt to throw the wool over Western eyes. It seems to be working. How often do you hear from the MSM about Iran’s progress, as opposed to what President Obama is doing about the problem?
The “Flame” virus whose existence was revealed last week is 20 times bigger than Stuxnet and was aimed at stealing Iranian-Russian blueprints, presumably of nuclear facilities.
“Stuxnet was really unique because of its size, and this [Flame] is about 20 times bigger than Stuxnet,” Symantec official Kevin Haley, quoted by CNN, said at a cyber conference inWashington.
Computer analysts have almost unanimously agreed that an unidentified nation launched the Flame virus.
“Researchers said that technical evidence suggests it was built on behalf of the same nation or nations that commissioned the Stuxnet worm that attacked Iran's nuclear program in 2010,” the Indian newspaper reported.
Recent events, such as slower growth in the U.S. and China, show “there is some evidence that the turmoil in Europe is actually starting to affect growth in some meaningful way in the rest of the world,” said Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO Capital Markets.
The deteriorating state of Europe’s debt crisis has renewed a sense of urgency among global leaders, as markets around the world continue to recoil from the threat of a financial contagion.
Group of Seven finance ministers and central bankers were to hold talks early Tuesday morning, with concerns growing that the capital-stretched financial system in Spain — the latest casualty in the region — could buckle, possibly causing a run on banks that could spread through Europe and beyond.
Eurozone Debt Crisis Could Spark Bear Market In U.S., Goldman Sachs Warns
Despite Spain’s financial woes and a banking system feared to be on the verge of collapse, the country’s IBEX 35 index finished up 2.9pc. Investors were buoyed by hopes that the eurozone might move towards greater centralised control of national budgets in the single currency bloc, after comments by Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, at the weekend. The CAC 40 in France rose 0.1pc.
Fears that Spain’s banks are on the verge of disaster have sent Spanish bond yields soaring to 6.5 per cent, only slightly below the 7-per-cent level that triggered the bailouts of Greece, Ireland and Portugal in 2010 and 2011.
The deepening banking crisis on the euro zone’s Mediterranean frontier has European Union and national finance ministers scrambling for a solution, for fear that a run on the banks will plunge Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy into financial chaos, destabilizing the entire region.
But instead of gaining a mighty reputation for his philanthropy, or his investment prowess, Soros is reviled abroad and criticized here in his adopted country. Most everywhere Soros, his foundations or his investing have gone, trouble has followed. He’s helped foment revolutions, undermined national currencies and funded radicals around the world. Soros has been convicted of insider dealing in France and fined $3 million, fined another $2 million in his native Hungary. His “foundations have been accused of shielding spies and breaking currency laws” and his investing strategy has been targeted for harming several national currencies.
Imagine if someone had read George Orwell’s “1984” and then tried to make it happen. That’s what Soros has done, only with another, equally awful look into the future.
Soros has spent hundreds of millions of dollars funding a “Brave New World” for Americans and even he admits it won’t turn out well.
...a sophisticated and extremely well-financed movement to advance global governance has taken root in most Western countriesInsisting on using the UN as a conduit for enacting international protocols and regulations — almost all of which would override national legislation — globalists use international environmental accords, humanitarian law, and international treaties as vehicles to advance an agenda that is becoming increasingly aggressive and unwilling to brook opposition.This well-financed campaign designed to strip sovereign governments of their ability to regulate and monitor human rights and environmental protection has naturally put the globalist agenda on a collision course with constitutional democracy. Put simply, transnationalists in the UN and the European Union — and more importantly, among America’s elites — are using the demands for a global rule of law to make American constitutional law subservient to a global authority. In many respects, they are succeeding.
To examine how this is happening and what the consequences might be for the United States and other Western nations, theAmerican Freedom Alliance has convened a two-day conference in Los Angeles titled “Global Governance vs. National Sovereignty: Is It the West’s Next Great Ideological War?”Drawing upon an international list of speakers and panelistswith representatives from Australia, Central Europe, the UK, and France, the conference will cover the full range of issuesregarding the global governance movement’s assault on national sovereignty: the politicization of international law, the uses and abuses of “lawfare,” and the role of non–governmental organizations as purveyors of global rule.In this, there is an important lesson for the modern world: In a brutal time, we are lost when we don’t respond immediately to obvious threats as soon as they appear. The global governance movement is one of those threats we ignore at our peril.
History usually repeats itself, and if you have lived two lives, as I have done, you have a good chance of seeing that re-enactment with your own eyes. In 1978, I paid with two death sentences from my native Romania for helping her people rid themselves of their Marxist dictatorship, carefully disguised as socialism. Thirty years later I witnessed how the same Marxism, camouflaged as socialism, began infecting the shores of my adoptive country, the United States, which had just won a 44-year Cold War against Marxism and against its earthly incarnation, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.That new alliance between the Democratic Party and the Communist Party was a first in the history of the United States, the world’s headquarters of democracy and free enterprise. In November 2008, over 65 million Americans who were unable to identify the stealth virus of Marxism that was infecting the Democratic Party voted to give this party the White House and both chambers of Congress.Although we now live in an age of technology, we still do not have an instrument that can scientifically measure to what extent the Communist endorsement of the Democratic Party influenced the results of the 2008 election. But if there had been any doubt in my mind that the Democratic and the Communist parties had secretly joined forces, that doubt was erased in 2009, when Van Jones, part of a left fringe of declared communists, became the White House’s green jobs czar.
Soon after that, the White House and the Democrat-controlled Congress began dutifuly following in Marx’s footsteps by redistributing our country’s wealth and putting under government control a part of its health care, banking system, and automobile industry.
In his Manifesto of the Communist Party, Marx urged his followers to replace capitalism with communism via a “socialist redistribution of wealth,” which “should displace capitalism and precede communism.” Marx advocated ten “despotic inroads on the rights of property,” and he called them the ten planks of communism. The most important are:
- A progressive or graduated income tax;
- Abolition of rights of inheritance;
- Centralization of credit in the hands of the state;
- Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state;
- Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
- If you know the Manifesto, you will think Marx himself wrote the Democratic Party’s 2012 electoral campaign, which contains all of the above planks of Marxism. If you don’t know the Manifesto, click here and you’ll get it from the horse’s mouth.
American essayist George Santayana, an immigrant like me, used to say that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
The Global Governance Conference site is a fraudulent site. If Hon John Howard AC were really attending such a conference on a controversial topic, Australia would know about it. It says attendance by invitation only, but anyone can purchase a ticket online including a student rate you don't even have to prove you're a student to get. How convenient. And they are using a Gmail address as a contact. Wow. The gall. I really hope you didn't buy a ticket, because your money is *gone*.
These words were singing in my heart today. I decided to write them down..and share them. God bless
my Lord, oh my sweet Lord. The Lord of all creation, heaven, earth ..why Lord , oh why Lord did you come down from your glory..your awesome glory..Why did you come to this earth..why did you cloth yourself with flesh..why Lord..why Lord..Your love could it be so strong for me. Your love, could that be the reason..Thank you my Lord, thank you my Lord. You walked this earth, your talked on this earth, you breath in the air of this earth that you made . If only they would believe..if only they would believe..They spat on my lord, they mocked my Lord, they beat my Lord..they crucified my Lord..the Lord of heaven and earth, the creator of all things..If only they would believe in who he said he was..They killed my Lord, they buried my Lord..but they didn't understand..who my Lord is. My Lord has risen, my Lord is not dead..my Lord did not stay in the grave. My Lord, my Lord is alive today..my Lord is alive. Because of his death, his burial and his resurrection..I can live..I can live forever and ever with my Lord. He loved me so, He loved me so..He gave himself so that my sins would be gone..they would not count against me again..I am cleansed from my sins..Oh Lord I didn't deserve this..oh Lord I didn't deserve this..What can I say, what can I do..to say thank you..From sin I turn away, I claim you as my Lord and my God. You claim me as your child..you claim me as a friend. Thank you my Lord for your love. You did it because you love me. In your presence is where I long to be. I long to see you my Lord..to be with you forever, for eternity. Please come Lord and take me to be with you. Oh Lord, how I do love you.. Jesus Christ my Lord..Amen..
Thanks for the prayers guys. The heart cath went very well and I have no blockages. I meet again with the surgeons next Wednesday to discuss the next step. it is there that I will be asking about the possibility of going to ECU for the minimal invasive procedure. God was most assuredly with me today. His peace was amazing. I'm still hoping for the rapture before the surgery but if not te Lord has been with me every step of the way. :)
Stocks are UP again, Nasdaq in a
2 day rally already. Current EWI
counts INDICATE alot more BULLING
coming in the near future. Please
be prepared for that.
The "END" will be delayed yet again.
i cannot say how long this rally will
last, I hope only a few weeks, it
depends if bulls get greedy quickly.
IF THEY DO, then the next drop will
be a 3 down and MUCH worse. It would appear that the expected 3
of 3 now WILL NOT materialize.
Bad news for bears and people expecting the rapture. patience
is a VIRTUE as they say. i guess
Jesus has ALOT more mercy for this
greedy selfish world then we thought possible.......
Good report wv.,
So glad for you.
Anon - beautifully stated - thanks for that :)
WV - Don't forget, you are ultimately in control of what is done to your heart. Listen to what the docs at ECU have to say and pray about it (as I know you have) - ad follow your instincts (aka Holy Spirit).
Also listen to what the docs at ECU tell you. I would also be interested in the downside of the minimally invasive procedure at ECU...I would assume if it didn;t work out, the invasive procedures could still be performed. Good luck with this and of course I;ll be praying for you
I Pray for your healing WV.
We all look for that blessed hope. But as to the timing please consider this.
Did Peter expect the rapture to come during his lifetime?
Read and understand john 21:18-19, and 2pet1:14-16.
Anon...what is the point regarding peters perspective?..lets not dance just come out with it.
Have you read the verses?
If you put yourself in peter's position, did he expect the rapture in his lifetime?
It is just a simple yes or no.
Its important to know peters perpective regarding rapture as he is one of the apostles.
What do you think scott?
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
14. shortly I must put off-Greek, "the putting off (as a garment) of my tabernacle is speedy": implying a soon approaching, and also a sudden death (as a violent death is). Christ's words, Joh 21:18, 19, "When thou art old," &c., were the ground of his "knowing," now that he was old, that his foretold martyrdom was near. Compare as to Paul, 2Ti 4:6. Though a violent death, he calls it a "departure" (Greek for "decease," 2Pe 1:15), compare Ac 7:60.
He was getting up in age and knew that he was to die as Jesus had foretold what kind of death.
So No Peter was not expecting the Rature in his life time. I don't think so anyway.
How about paul.
Did paul expect the rapture, before he can bear witness at rome? As the Lord commanded him in acts 23:11.
Scott, what is your view on these?
I hope this is not the traditional bait, cast and rescue game by anon. and his helpers. Every week like clockwork it starts all over again. They seem to circle the same topic, the same person---by try to come in through different methods. Can you just leave this alone and move on or state your complete thoughts on this?
Paul wanted to be with the Lord , period. All born again Christians want to be with the Lord. We all comfort each other with Pauls word of the Rapture.
If it doesn't come in our life..we keep waiting, watching and hoping and comforting each other.
Our desire is to be with the Lord.
Its not a bait, it is establishing facts.
To even understand their letters we must know and understand what the apostles believed in this case the timing of rapture.
Im not in a position to dig into this right now in any depth...in short:
The doctrine of imminence is well established and i quotes many of the specific s riptural references a few posts back...lets first discuss that rather large body of work before moving into more distant and tangential scriptures...as far as peter...
I truly agree that I hope that is the intent too. These topics or debates if you will seem to target anything Stephen may be making in his own statements. We have come to learn to love him and meet him right where he is. These anon. postings that go on each week refer to Paul and 1and2nd Thes. Which always finds it's way back to picking on Stephen. So I agree if that is not the intent can you share what you know? I am always open to learn new things too. I say this with love, but it is clear your end results or thoughts are clear so can you just share them and we can all learn and
talk from there instead of tid-bits here and there?
This discussipn reminds me of folks who argue against a pretrib rapture based on one scripture while ignoring the preponderance of many many scriptures which clearly point to pretrib...its a common argument style with which i am well familiar..
So....rather than delve into tangents which may or may not apply, lets first examine the large body of scriptures which point to imminence and THEN take up the periphery...that seems more logical to me
Scott (ps..above comment was me as well)
As far as Peter, im not sure he wrote specifically about imminence either way..that wouldnt argue one way or the other..again, why focus on this ambiguity when there are scores og scriptures which point to imminence?
Of not og :)
And yes, i have read the scriptures..thanks for asking...
Could someone find that list of scriptures i compiled a few days ago when we had this same discussion (of course it was conveniently ignored) and cut and paste it back here?
It also included many references to early church writings...thay should be our starting point
Is it so hard to accept the truth?
How would you understand those scriptural references you quote, if you cannot accept this simple truth.
Accept this simple truth, then your scriptures will exactly fall in place.
Then you will know the true doctrine of imminence.
This same peter who wrote that the Lord will deliver the just out of temptation, and reserved the unjust to the day of judgement to be punished2pet2:9
This same peter who wrote in 2pet3
That in last days there will be scoffers
the same peter who looks for new heaven
this same peter who wrote that the day of the Lord will come as thief in the night
Is the same peter who believes that rapture could not happened during his lifetime.
One more brief note.anon..you made the exact same argument a few days ago regarding paul and rome...yet when i presented the scriptures on imminence and early church writings you dropped the topic...now you bring it back up...so either engage in the larger body of work regarding imminence or drop it entirely..its disingenuious at best and tiresome at worst....
I am happy to copy and paste for you, do you know approx. the date time frame?
It is not ambiguity.
OK...here is what I believe Scott is looking for:
I'm not so sure regarding the interval between the Rapture and the Tribulation. (also, I can't recall where I read AF saying he thought there would be a gap between Rapture and Trib, but I'll dig around later for that quote)
My general thoughts - just based on my logic:
- The Rapture has been an imminent event since the beginning of the Church age. I believe Imminence is fundamental to the Rapture, and Showers spends a greal deal of time on a vast array of scriptures pointing to imminence - which means the Rapture could happen at ANY time
- If the above is true, and I believe it is - then by placing the Rapture immesiately before the Trib takes away the immence (because the Tribulation hasn't been an "imminent event" since the beginning of the Church age - as certain things had to happen before the Trib (the generational signs given by Jesus, etc...technology for MOTB, Technology for the entire world to witness the deaths of the 2 Witnesses of Rev 11 etc)...
- Logistically, it would seem that there would have to be SOME gap between the Rapture and the Trib (minutes? Hours? Days?)...For the simple fact that it would be very hard for the AC to confirm the covenant in the midst of the carnage that the Rapture would create.
- Once you have crossed the barrier of having SOME gap between the Rapture and the Trib, you have opened those theological doors, because technically, the difference in hours and days - or even months is arbitrary.
May 31, 2012 6:46 PM
As far as what happens to people and issues of salvation, I see this as similar to the 33 years that Jesus walked the earth.
During that time, we weren't in the church age, as pentecost hadn't happened yet, yet people were coming to Christ and accepting His salvation. Even though it wasn't in the church age. Those people wouldn't have been in "The Church" (nor the "bride of Christ), but they would have been saved...........
I think the same would apply to those who became saved immediately after the Rapture (as I believe there will be - especially people who were warned of the Rapture - they will see the truth IMO immediately and come to Christ - and reach salvation even tho they aren't in the CHurch.
I don't see this gap as being a problem
NOW - having said all of that.....
May 31, 2012 6:50 PM
I personally have ALWAYS believed that there will be a VERY brief interval between the Rapture and the Tribulation for these reasons:
1. Harpazo (greek word root of "Rapture" - (1 Thess. 4:16) has several meanings and one of them is to "save from sudden destruction")
2. 2 Peter 2 5-9 gives us two examples of the Rapture IMO...The first being Noah, who was spared from the flood and the second example was how Lot was saved ("rescued" )...
Then Peter said : "If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue Godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment..."
Both Noah and Lot were saved at the last minute from sudden destruction - consistent with the meaning of Harpazo.
So for these three reasons, I believe the interval will be very short - and I also believe the Rapture will be another stepping stone for the AC to seize control - with the elimination of the Church, his road will be completely paved.
May 31, 2012 6:56 PM
Mrs. C's Help to the topic at hand
Hi Brother Scott, :)
Excellent post as usual! Yes indeed, the Rapture has always been imminent, and will continue to be so up until the moment the Shofar blows, and the Bride goes Home with our awesome Bride Groom! :)
That will be the end of the “Church Age”. Yes a lot of events had to take place over all of history, to bring us to where we are now, at the edge of all time. As we draw ever so close to the end of that Church Age, it is evident that there isn’t much more time before the beginning of the Trib, which we are not to be a part of.
I agree, that there could be hours or even days, before the signing of the “covenant”, but not much more than that. Isaiah 17 is God beginning to return to His People, and then by the quickly following Ezekiel 38 war, He is fully back with His People. Ezekiel 38 is Gods destruction of Gog and his forces, followed by His very beautiful conversation with His People. Restoring His Covenant with them. In Ezekiel 39, God speaks only to His People, the house of Israel, not the Church, in the aftermath. The Church is gone, and the ac steps in at the end of the battle. No date can be set, and we will not know the exact moment, and honestly when the Rapture happens, it will happen in a nano second and we all wont even have time to think about it.
We have to look and see what Gods Purpose is for these wars. Isaiah 17 – God is an observer, and then at the very end, steps in. This is the beginning of His Return to His People. Ezekiel 38-39- Is God revealing Himself to the world, and more importantly, restoring His Covenant with His People. Somewhere in midst of all of this “desolation” as God refers to in Isaiah 17, the death, destruction of both wars, the Church is going home, because again, God is speaking and with, only His People, not the Church by the end of Ezekiel 39. This I believe is when the ac will come forward with his “covenant”, at the end of Ezekiel 39. His Word tells us of the horrendous things to come with these wars. From our perspective down here, honestly, the world will be in chaos, economic collapse, will there even be any communications?, and man will witness Gods Mighty power of destruction from these wars. Remember, its not just the ME He will be going after, He also goes after the land of Magog.
There is no question that there will be many Saved directly after the Rapture, and they wont be part of the Church. I have to respectfully disagree though dear Brother, and say that they will have to be classified as “Trib Saints”. God is very detailed as to the different groups that will be in Heaven, and He says nothing of a intermittent group that’s Believes between the Rapture and the beginning of the Trib. Those that accepted Jesus as their Savior, before His Crucifixion, and before the Holy Spirit came…well dear Brother that can open a whole book on there classification. :) Example, Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day. Then over the years, Ive heard others say that Jesus wasn’t really saying “today”, and whew, that can open a whole study in itself.
Yes Brother, I agree, Lot and Noah are prime examples for us. :) Our Lord Jesus will be coming to take home His Bride…and God will be returning to His People, His nation of Israel He calls His Wife……
God Bless You Brother for Your Service to Him!
May 31, 2012 9:35 PM
Other helpful quotes:
Yea, I totally agree with all of that, especially the sequence of events - 100%. And I also believe that they will be lumped in with the Trib Saints, especially when they are in view in Rev 20. To me, once the Rapture takes place an dthe Church age is over, its all the "same" at that point (IOW, there isn't a separate dispensation for folks between the Rapture and the Trib - totally agree with that.
Thats a long dissertation...
The key to this, IMO, lies in the fact that the same root word (Genea) was used in Matthew 1 with the geanology - and the variances in that lost of people was enormous, with many different eras of "generations" listed there. In other words, Genea used there meant whatever generation for each person mentioned and their life-spans varied widely.
For that reason and many others, you (IMO) simply can't assing a set number (70 or whatever) to the meaning.
A generation is what it is in context, and the context is the end of the Church Age and whatever a generation is at that time.
In today's world, a generation approximately 100-120 years (there are a number of people who are > 110 years)....A lifespan.
Remember when the last person died, who had been born in the civol wat generation? When she died (I believe it was back in the '80's), the press declared that the "Civil war generation was over"....
There are many listed meanings for "Genea" (generation) and that is what leads to so much discussion and confusion.
ALSO - this is a key fact....In the Olivet Discourse (MAtt 24), Jesus referenced the days of Noah. If you take a look back at Genesis 6:3, where we see the Flood in View (Days of Noah) - we see this:
"Then the Lord Said, 'My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be 120 years".
Isn't it interesting that 120 years is also the outside limit on today's generation?
May 31, 2012 10:09 PM
There are many things that have to occur before the tribulation 1) destruction of Damascus 2) gog/magog 3)setting up of 10 kingdoms/kings AC is the 11nth king 4)setting op one world religion. if there is no gap then the rapture isn't immenant
May 31, 2012 10:13 PM
So to answer your question more specifically, considering imminence..
it could have happened on ANY day and obviously not on a specific day as you seemingly sarcastically suggest...that seems quote obvious if you understand the meaning of imminence.Scott
June 1, 2012 11:01 AM
what do you think it means like the days of noah, or the days of lot?
June 1, 2012 11:20 AM
If most scholars define the church age as the pentecost, i have no objection with that.
If your understanding of imminence is that it could have happened on ANY day, then it could have happened Day 2 after the pentecost, or Day 2 after the Lord shows to ananias that paul was chosen to preach to the gentiles in acts 9:15?
June 1, 2012 11:47 AM
There is one thing that has to happen before the Rapture! LOL! The fullness of the gentiles. So whenever that happens....tada...we are outta here but none of us have a clue when that will be. If I'm wrong feel free to say so!
As for the time between the Rapture and the Trib, who knows? The Bible doesn't specify. I don't think it will be very long though. As we can clearly see, everything is pretty much laid out now and just needs to be implemented. Throw in a couple big natural disasters (even if they aren't that natural, by hand of God or hand of diabolical man) and a war and Mr.A.C. is in like flynn.
We see what happened when Japan refused to play by the New Rule Book.
At least we know what is on the way!
Currently waiting at the golden chariot stop-your sister in Christ!
June 1, 2012 1:23 PM
See ally, that would create a period of time, and the ANY day then, would not be the same as ANY day now, thus debunking the doctrine of imminency as Scott understand it.
June 1, 2012 1:52 PM
Yes, I believe it could have, theoretically been Day 2.
Your sarcasm is growing old, and I don't see the need for it. Why can't you simply have an adult, mature conversation w/o the sarcasm & snarkiness ? What point does that serve?
Why don't you tell me exactly what your point of view is, and discuss this on such basis, without the attitude?
Now. Lets try this again - as mature adults.
So obviously you don't believe in the doctrine of Imminence. Fine. Lets take it from there and do the "point-counterpoint" thing ok?
I believe you can point to the following scriptures and see the early church looking for the imminent arrival of Christ Jesus (you also have to look at the greek root for these scriptures, needless to say)
1 Cor 1:7, Philippians 3:20, Titus 2:13, James 5:7-9, 1 John 2:28, Rev 3:11. 22:7, 12, 20
In addition to the above, there are massive early church writings which point to the doctribne of imminence:
1st Epistle of Clement
Didache chapter 16 (70 AD)
Shephard of Hermas, chapter 3 (90AD)
Justin Martyr's writings ~155AD
Calvin's writings in Corpus Reformatorum (extensive)
So where exactly do you disagree with the doctrine of imminence and what exactly do you believe?
June 1, 2012 7:54 PM
If you believe it could happen in day 2, theoretically,
that is before paul can preach to the gentiles as God has chosen him to be...
Then i have no more to say...
June 1, 2012 8:25 PM
i did ask you a simple truth about ananias thought on timing of rapture in acts 9:15, but when you insist your false belief, i did not bother to continue, coz you have harden your heart and closed your mind.
This time i tried to reach out to wv.hence the continuation.
And again you have shown your closed mind.
Again i will ask.
Based on the above do you believe that from the verses shown.
1. Peter was not expecting the rapture during his lifetime.
2. Paul was not expecting rapture before he can bear witness at rome
3. Ananias did not expect rapture before he can lay hands on paul.
I did not include john, hope that is enough.
Your honest opinion in these
Again i will ask.
Based on the above do you believe that from the verses shown.
1. Peter was not expecting the rapture during his lifetime.
2. Paul was not expecting rapture before he can bear witness at rome
3. Ananias did not expect rapture before he can lay hands on paul.
I did not include john, hope that is enough.
Your honest opinion in these
One more time....lets discuss the large body of scriptures that point to imminence FIRST and then take up the more remote and ambiguous scriptures..and yes, as compared to what you have above they are FAR less ambiguous....and why did so many early church authors write about imminence?
Here is how you play the game anon....an example...a patient comes into the ER with a broken arm....x-rays confirm as does the physical exam (its a compound fracture)...and you come into the ER and say "its not a fracture because the patient doesnt seem to be in enough pain and his fall wouldnt have led to a broken arm"....when i say "lets look at the x-ray and the arm itself" you refuse to do so and accuse me of being close minded by not analyzing the nature of the fall and the degree of pain
So scott, what is your belief on
As far as your specific points i will be happy to discuss once we have dissected the "x-ray" which are the scriptures which clearly point to imminence and thr array of early church writings as i have requested...and yes i do have comments regarding your points but i wont allow you to dictate the conversation..my guess is, you have no answers to those scriptures otherwise ypu wouldnt avoid them so vigorously
how about lets not, anon...its growing old. Instead of asking Scott all these "what ifs" and "how about this" questions, you should look else where to try and debate...because thats what you are doing, lets be honest here. You are not trying to learn something, you want points and counterpoints so as to debate your logic.
I believe the rapture is imminent. Very, soon..very, very soon. Don't you want the Rapture to come today, tomorrow, soon? I think the bible doesn't say "when exactly" it will come,so we will keep watch and will stay faithful, and encourage each other as we should. The Rapture being imminent keeps us going one more day. day after day.Waiting and hoping in the Lord. Being faithful.
This is how you play it.
It is obvious that people can see the "broken arm" they could even see the cracked bone protruding and yet as a doctor you ask for an x-ray first and then ask a second opinion from your scholars.
Then your scholar says "no, its not broken".
Then you are facing a dilemna.
In front of you is a reality of broken arm against your wise scholars saying "No its not broken".
In fact i have to rin now but perhaps i will create a separate blog post re: imminence..the funny thing is..is the fact that i am seeing the EXACT types of arguments that posttribbers and midtribbers use...they find 1-2 scriptures that are tangential to the essential points and then obsess on those while REFUSING to discuss the main body of scriptures which point to pre-trib doctrine...it happens every single time and you can see it coming a mile away...i noticed this when i first started studying prophecy almost 30 years ago...
the broken arm are obviously seen by people around you.
The reality embedded in my 3 questions, cannot be denied.
You on the other hand as a doctor ask for a second opinion from your scholars who say "No".
The truth is you are facing a dilemna.
The reality of a broken arm in front of you against your wise scholars.
A simple question, Did you see a broken arm?
Prognosis then will follow.
I suggest Anon. pull up this link.
If you would take the time to really read this, I feel it will explain to you much in regards to when the Rapture will occure.
The tribulation is for God to start dealing with Israel again. It has nothing to do with the body of Christ. We will be gone..God will pick up where He left off before the period of Grace begin.
You do believe in the Rapture don't you? I am a bit confused as to where you stand on it.
I am not refusing to discuss, i just want your honest opinion on the 3 questions, and we can discuss anything you want.
This will i know if i am giving the right food to those who ask.
anon...Im pretty sure we are not asking for any spiritual food from you.
Yes, i believe in rapture, and i do believe in doctrine of imminence.
Let me put it this way, scott said it is how i understand "imminence".
Obviously You wouldnt ask, after 30 years of studying prophecy.
And yet you cannot answer the 3 questions above.
What's your point in all this? It's not entirely clear to me, but you almost seem to be implying some sort of belief that the rapture has already taken place.
Please let me know if I'm incorrect.
I truly hope your intentions are good. I see Scott trying to look at the whole "body" of the subject to get a great starting point for us all to learn and follow from. In your analogy, you speak as the patient who wishes to show up and claim something is, and so it shall be, without the Dr.'s looking at the overall picture of how one even arrives at such a diagnosis or in this case, how they even became in that particular situation to cause them come to the ER for the said X-Ray.
I am sure you can trust as we do, that Scott is breaking this down by the proper methods so we don't go off on a wild goose chase as everyone's time is valuable. How many times have we heard the example of patients showing up at the ER with something they claimed happened to them or better yet, a loved one and it turned out to be a clear case of ....let's say for the sake of clarity...MSbP aka Munchausen by proxy?
The Dr. who in this case is the host just can't say it is just because one of us says it's so; we must turn to the Author, the Great Creator, the Great Physician himself, the Master of the Universe and see what he says about these things as a whole, not in part to suit some diversion of an argument to divide one against the other, that is solely created by the evil one in these last days. We must look at the facts in the bible as a whole and while I know that is not easy, it is crucial to all our growth and understanding. We are all to grow from this, not remain stagnant.
Truly, I hope you can humbly come forth and simply state at how you arrived at your thinking so we can walk together and learn and share from the different point of view you have. Cherry picking statements is not going to help the Dr. in this scenario, nor the patient and most certainly in reality not us, in this case us, the followers, while we sort this out in love, patience and understanding.
Oh my goodness! Just stopped to eat lunch and take a look in, and theres 42 posts and counting?
Hmmm why am I not surprised :(
Same old stuff with "anon", or is it "anon"? Lets see, badgers Scott, is very, very RUDE to Scott, baits Scott, compulsive posting with baiting questions (couldnt even wait 20 mins the other day without posting multiple questions in two separate posts one right after another) And of course we have the “answers a question with a question” stuff, AGAIN! Who was it that appears to always string out the comments section, steeling everyones time? Where is this rabbit trail leading, once AGAIN? Lets see on that one…
Hmmm…trys to dismiss “impenitency”, trys to question the timing of the Rapture…all attempts to undermine the soon to come, Pre-Trib Rapture. Because why? Are ya trying to lead us to the “we’re already in the Middle of the Trib”, or the “Pre-Wrath” nonsense?
Seems very, very familiar…its so obvious who you are, but most importantly God knows who you are.. Its also very obvious that Scott in his obedience to God, is doing something right, isn’t he…otherwise you wouldn’t be so bent on trying to constantly attack him. But we also know what darkness is behind that, don’t we. Time is running very, very short “anon”, know that you, as also all of us,, will be accountable before Him and its much closer than you can imagine…
BTW it really is amazing MATO (one of many names so we’ll just stick with mato) how so many “anons” and others show up…when you obsessively post…hasn’t Scott asked you (nicely the first out of a cazillion times) to STOP!
No the rapture has not taken place yet.
there are 3 simple questions to start, i am not even arguing, asking only for honest opinion based on probably actual events then, what is the apostles stance back then.
I am not even insisting what i believe.
Like a nurse in ER shouting there is a patient with of a "broken arm".
Your doctor said then to that nurse "stop shouting its a broken arm" listen to me i am the doctor here and i am the expert in this area. "its not a broken arm". Not to mention that the doctor previous prognosis was different from reality vs that of the Nurse assessment and the people around the area.
To understand the letters we need to know their stance first.
If you want to discuss their letters, understand them first.
Am i debating, No.
Let those who have an ear let them hear.
You have requested 3 simple questions to start but that doesn't mean that is the road that leads into that proper answer at the outset. So like the nurse in the ER as you mention, there is proper protocol or methodology to many things in life. A haphazard approach to living will only create greater confusion in life, this is why many operate in such thinking, I believe that is what Scott is trying to show you here. You thought you had fact but you are missing so many key areas that encompass the body of the subject at hand.
Though the nurse in the ER may have her opinion to the assessment at hand, it still is the final authority of the Dr. to determine the methods in which he may like to proceed to get to his desired outcome. Now, not saying the nurse in this scenario is wrong, nor the Dr. but there are methods in place to streamline all approaches. The Dr. maintains all responsibility and integrity to the patients needs as well as the hospital and all he comes in contact with daily. He is in a greater position of authority, just like the word of God that we are seeking. Not, to take that statement and make a Dr. superior or inferior but this is the proper chain of command in these settings that you state.
I guess my question to you then is are you asking for help in understanding their stances first? It seems that your stating instead of asking if that is the case. It is OK to gain greater understanding but it has to come as I am sure you know from an open mind, heart and dialogue from the position of inquiry not general statements.
So you asked the Dr. in this scenario of his recent findings, while he appreciates your questions he is directing you to a greater need of assessment before a diagnosis can be given. Once all the preliminary tests have been conducted with a full scale overview, then he can determine the final outcome, which in this case would be the prognosis. One can't get to the long term outcome without going through the assessments of all the facts first, that is just how it is.
The Dr. in this scenario, Scott, has been down this road with so many patients, let's just say as an example, and knows where to streamline to save time , energy and aggravation and take us to the root of the issue and look at how things branch out from there. I am not speaking for Scott, but have had enough experience in this arena of life to know that life is a series of events. We must go through the assessments to get to the desired outcomes.
For now we can opt to put this "patient" of the topic in an observation mode. Let's admit this patient for further observation and make our assessments accordingly thereby arriving at a diagnosis and the Dr. can provide the prognosis to ensure a healthy well-being.
Let's see what the Dr. says during this time. No one is arguing, but part of learning is dissection and humbleness. If we want to learn we need to ask first, seek, share, find, and grow from all our experiences. If we "tell" then that comes from the position of already knowing and that leads to the question of what assessments have you made to make such inquiries. This is just common interaction among people sharing, learning, loving and growing. Not attacking like it seemed like you were doing. I like your last remark....
"Let those who have an ear let them hear" Try to hear what Scott and many here are saying. Learn with an open mind and it will take us all very far as we share and grow in this teaching together.
26:1 As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.
26:2 As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.
26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.
26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.
26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools.
26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
26:13 The slothful man saith, There is a lion in the way; a lion is in the streets.
26:14 As the door turneth upon his hinges, so doth the slothful upon his bed.
26:15 The slothful hideth his hand in his bosom; it grieveth him to bring it again to his mouth.
26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.
26:17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.
26:18 As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death,
26:19 So is the man that deceiveth his neighbour, and saith, Am not I in sport?
26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.
26:21 As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.
26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
26:23 Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross.
26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;
26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.
26:26 Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation.
26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
you can call this "anon" whatever you want, you are entitled to it, as i am entitled to post as "anonymous" as also did Scott.
Is it forbidden to response to the queries or Is there a limit as to the number of comments you can have in a single post.
Did the Father sent his Son because we are doing right?
Am I "stealing" their time when they response to me as i did to them?
How about you, what could be your answer to my 3 questions above?
Alrighty Then Anon~
Right there, you don't want a humble approach, but want to attack another poster and do not wish to wait. The intent is showing clearly here. I hope you will wait as in life some of us must and the Dr. will be in soon. I had hoped differently but silly me, something greater is going on here and I will be praying for you.
I understand his position.
If they cannot hear a shout, how would they hear the whisper.
If they would not admit to a simple truth, how would they understand prophecy.
This is how i understand the doctrine of imminent return.
If you want to know, I'll come back in December.
Im thinking 'ALL these folks is acting crazy including the ones flicking verses like spit balls. For shame!
Hey! Im as bad, I just read the garbage. Wheres the REAL Doc Scott when hes needed. DELETE for pitys sake.
here is your error Anon..I (and Im assuming many others) do not go after teachings of men, I do not follow men's logic. I follow God's Word and the Holy Spirit. When I was younger, I was in a false religion. No matter how many times Christian people tried to reason with me or tell me the truth and error of my beliefs I would have none of it...it was not until GOD HIMSELF intervened in my life and saved me that my eyes were opened. What Im trying to say to you is that our beliefs are different obviously than yours. No amount of "reasoning" as you see it will make me question my beliefs, and I honestly think no amount of "reasoning" on our part would change yours. It will only be through God. So give it up, move on, pray for enlightement...in the end it doesnt really matter does it? All born again Christians will one day be with our Lord, wont we? If Jesus should decide to come tomorrow or come in 10 years...the outcome will be the same...its written in stone. Our fates are sealed. Argueing about when and what ifs are mute points. God bless!
would you like to know the Day or the Hour?
56 posts and counting...are you going for 100 again? You go round and around...and have no humility what so ever...its all about you, right MATO? But we know you go by more than just the name Mato, dont we. So rude, manipulative, and disrespectful to Scott and others for that matter, then there will be the “oh Im so innocent”, then the “victim”. Truly, so predictable. What ever happened to your accent? That’s how you started here, with an accent, and whew, Im not the only one who noticed it just seemed to vanish.
How long now? 6 MONTHS of this! 6 MONTHS of trying to force feed others that we are in the middle of the Trib! We ARE NOT in the middle of the Tribulation, there is NO Pre-Wrath! Nuff said…not taking the bait…
Dear Brothers & Sisters~
If many are available right now I would like us to join together and pray against this wicked spirit that is running rampant on the board. I believe this can help tremendously so when Scott does return with a healthier prospective it can be well received.
Anon-I find it odd that you would perceive the sharing of scripture in the same light as the statement "like flicking spitballs". We must move on from this folly and those with a sincere interest will see it that way. The word of God is pure, the only way it can be used is for encouragement, truth and light as well as a weapon to chase off the evil one. If that is the case here, there should never be any offense taken at the word of God unless it strikes a nerve to the core. Scott will be back later with a better prospective on this.
Hi Brother/Sister Mel,
I agree with your statement. It is only Gods Word and the Holy Spirit that feed us the Truth in His Word.
I have to respectfully agree on one comment though. Between Brothers and Sisters, we can discuss, study His Word together. However it is not a "mute point". We are very, very close to the Coming of Our Lord, Our Bridegroom, and it is the enemy, that at this critical moment in time, is using Brothers and Sisters against each other.
It matters greatly, as there are thousands of undecided folks, that read this Blog. When someone comes on trying to force their false beliefs, causing strife, and being deceptive at any cost, it has horrible repercussions. Teaching the false belief of Mid-Trib - Post- Trib, has no hope what so ever to those who have yet to accept Jesus as their Savior. It is a false teaching, that we are to go through the Trib, or in the Trib right now. This is Spiritual warfare, which Jesus warned us would come at this moment at the edge of time. Silly us, just never expected it from our own "Brothers and Sisters", but it is rampant out there, especially in cyber land where they cant resist the temptation to hide and deceive behind a keyboard...
By the way, when I post as "anon" its becase I am at a remote location and I'm too lazy to log in to my act :)
Anon - you crack me up. First of all, you attemts at the medical analogy are....well.....um.....lets just say "non-medical"...I assume you aren't in the field :)
Lets go back to the crystal clear analogy w/o your twisting.
I made the point that when a fracture is obvious from x-rays and physical exam, such information makes other, tangential information irrelevant. In this case, the type of fall and/or the degree of pain is vastly overruled by the objective information. You seem unable to grasp that analogy.
Secondly, like always, you REFUSE to discuss the body of scriptures and early church writings that overwhelming argue for imminence. You CLING desperately to the 1-2 scriptures that you obsess with, and absolutely refuse to even DISCUSS the larger body of scriptures.
And yes, this is exactly what I have seen for years in the mid and post tribs groups.
Then you try to bait me by attempting to argue that I can't answer your questions (whuch, by the way, I can - easily) - but I refuse to allow you to dictate the terms of this discussion. You need to dictate the terms by discussing your tangential and relatively meaningless scriptures becaue its crystal clear that you have no answers to the larger body of work - which by the way are the scriptures that so many scholars discuss yet you refuse to do so.
Why is that Anon?
Normally, I would delete, but the absurdity of this is so apparent that I'm going to leave it up.
Now...I'll say this ONE MORE TIME
If you are willing to have an adult discussion relating to the main body of scriptures that point to the doctrine of imminence, then we will do that, and move on to the more tangential scriptures such as the ones you propose.
Anything other than the above will be immediately deleted - just a forewarning because this is quite tiresome, and I have other things to do.
Agreeing with you in Prayer Sister GG! Amen!
God Bless You Sis!
Sigh!!......hey everyone, everytime we get in to this argument again and again, a bible verse keeps coming to mind and I think I just found what I have been thinking of.
2Timothy 2:14 "Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them."Please forgive me if I am way off base, and do not understand truly what is being said but bear with me as I type the notes my study Bible has to say about this verse.
Paul urged Timothy to remind the believers not to argue over unimportant details or have foolish discussions because such arguments are confusing, useless, and even harmful.False teachers love to cause strife and divisions by their meaningless quibbling over unimportant details (see 1Timothy 6:3-5)
If we are all going to meet someday and live together for all of eternity, let's just praise God for all He has done, and keep our focus on Jesus, whom really is all that matters in these troublesome times. Love to you all, and if I
piped in with something that does not even make sense, just ignore!
Anon - GG posted those scriptures above (again)....Lets take those up and then we'll get to the early church writings then we can get to the tangential scriptures.
By the way, you do realize that the Apostle Paul introduced the topic of the Rapture after the events took place in the book of Acts, and he introduced it as a "mystery" which meant that it was a new revelation - something which hadn't been previously introduced. This postdated any discussions that Jesus had with Peter - But I assume you know that :)
I also assume that you realize that the Rapture of the church applies to the body of believers only.
Now, lets take a look at those scriptures relating to Imminence shall we?
Additionally, Anon - what is your overall agenda here?
Why don't yoy just come out with it, rather than playing games with this?
What is your overall point of view?
Are you pre-trib? Mid-Trib? Post-Trib?
What is your ultimate point here?
My beliefs are completely open, obviously. I'm not trying to hide behind word games nor am I trying to mask my views.
This seems to be some kind of game with you and it is most unbecoming, to be completely honest.
Hi Brother Scott,
Mato...the pre-wrath untruth...and it looks like he/she is trying for 100 posts again...:(
Anon/Mato - please read my post which I explain the way we will discuss this...Its about 4-5 posts above. Many thanks.
Mrs. C, you are so right..its not a mute point in those terms. I just meant that one day no matter when the rapture happens we can all look foward to being with Jesus. We all should remember to put on the armor of God, now in these days more than ever. Love you all as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
And I have said thie before and I'll say it again. Why is this such a point of obsession with you? I never ever even consider going to mid-trib or post-trib sites to argue my POV....Why do you feel SO obsessed with coming over here to push your doctrine?
You can hold whatever beliefs that you want - thats your decision, but honestly, this obsessioon borders on pathological. Seriously. I don't get it.
And your refusal to take up the main body of scriptures which point to imminence is perplexing to say the least.
btw, Mrs. C, I meant "moot point" not mute point! LOL, its been a loooong day!
Did you just delete your post and my response scott?
This is becoming immature.
Mato. I made it clear how we would discuss this and you keep refusing to acknowledge this. I really don't have much more time for this - I need to get to the news of the day etc. and it was a long day at work today. I have other things going on besides this discussion believe it or not :)
Also - did you happen to catch my comment about the timing of Jesus discussions with Peter and when Paul introduced the mystery? (I know, I'm brealing my own 'rules' LOL) - Discussions that Jesus had with Peter, prior to Paul's introducing the Rapture doctrine are completely irrelevant to the doctrine of imminence with regard to the Rapture, but I digress...
I'd also like anwers to my questions re your obsession.
Do youreally think you;re going to come on here with one scripture, some snarky comments and hidden agenda and convince ANYONE of your POV?
If that is your goal, lets discuss some better ways that you may want to approach the topic in the future, on this board or other boards. Seriously.
Praying for peace and clarity and healing for this anon/Mato.
Anger and disgust are in the rear view mirror. Sympathy and prayer is needed now.
This is beyond rational behavior.
Mato - let me know when you want to discuss this in a systematic manner and I'll be glad to reopen this.
This has become circular and redundant and for some reason, you still, despite my attempts, refuse to discuss the large body of scriptures that point to imminence. You still refuse to disclose what your agenda is, or what your belief is regarding the relative timing of the rapture etc.
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