EU and Israel at odds on how to lift Gaza siege
Israel has said that a new EU-sponsored "force" could see the re-opening of Gaza crossing points. But the union's Gaza plan falls short of hard security guarantees.
"If you want to bring about a lifting of the closure around Gaza you should take responsibility and establish a strong, real and effective force to prevent smuggling there ... I can promise you that the minute the smuggling of arms into Gaza stops, the closure will be lifted," Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman said in a communique to press after meeting EU foreign relations chief Catherine Ashton in Jerusalem on Wednesday (5 January).
Wow. Its almost hard to believe that we are actually seeing this happen so soon.
"Close co-operation between Israel and the EU can end the smuggling and terror against Israel, removal of the siege and even the release of Gilad Shalit," the communique added, referring to the Israeli soldier being held by Palestinian militant group Hamas in Gaza.
The Lieberman statement appears to be a potential breakthrough for EU efforts to end the Gaza siege, imposed by Israel after Hamas took power in the strip in 2007.
A contact in the Ashton delegation told this website on Thursday that it is "difficult" to see how the security force idea fits in with the EU's current offer, however. "We have offered a three-pronged approach: help with infrastructure, equipment and training of Palestinian officials on the border, to help revive Gaza's economy and make sure we meet Israeli security concerns," the EU source explained.
The Ashton delegation, which includes the European External Action Service's new Middle East chief, French EU official Hugues Mingarelli, is meeting with Palestinian leaders in the West Bank on Thursday.
Although this will go largely unnoticed by the media, and most people around the world for that matter - in my opinion this is HUGE news.
There has been much speculation about the EU moving troops into the region - and how such actions would be highly consistent with the confirmation of a peace covenant. This speculation grew over the last several months as we watched the EU form an infrastructure that could handle such duties.
But now, we are beyond the speculation part of this equation. Its actually happening now. The troops haven't been sent in yet, but the negotiations are taking place and it seems obvious now that it is rapidly becoming a reality, as Israel has accepted the idea conceptually, and now the tangible plans are moving forward.
Is it just me, or are the prophetic signs starting to move even faster now?
The speed at which the EU is moving towards the ability to "confirm" a covenant is breathtaking.
I would expect the next step to be as follows:
As the peace process begins again - watch for a proposal that these EU forces move into Israel in order to maintain borders and keep the peace.
27 comments:
I guess your perspective is yet another way of looking at the End Time scenario. But I suspect that the "Covenant with Many" has already been confirmed, by way of the ENP(I) - and we yet await the coming Antichirst to be revealed, being granted "authority to continue" for a period of 42 months. This will be for the purpose of carrying out this mission set forth in the establishment of a Palestinian State. The A0D is just around the corner....... and Scripture is now being fulfilled right before our very eyes.
May God be with us All!
Official EU website:
http://ec.europa.eu/world/enp/strengthening_en.htm
"European Neighbourhood Policy - Strengthening the ENP
In December 2006, two and a half years after the EU adopted the European Neighbourhood Policy, the European Commission published a report on progress [67 KB], together with recommendations about how the policy could be further strengthened..."
Note: The 7-year European Neighbourhood Policy Instrument (ENPI) runs from 2007-2013.
Fwiw, the word "confirm" in Dan. 9:27, is Strongs #H1396, and also means "strengthen" (which actually has primacy):
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1396&t=KJV
Fwiw, in Mark 13:14, might the "abomination standing" possibly refer to the establishment of a foreign (i.e., Palestinian) state on Israel's heartland and/or, "standing" troops to enforce establishment of same:
Note:
Strong's word for "standing,"
#G2476, also means "establish," as in a kingdom (1b, "establish" and,
1b2, "kingdom"):
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2476&t=KJV
A reminder.
"It also asks ministers to set an ultimatum of April 2011 for Israel to fall into line or see the Union seek an end to the existing US-led peace talks in favour of a UN solution..."
http://euobserver.com/9/31477/?rk=1
Note: Passover in 2011 falls on 4/19/11. Many Bible scholars believe that the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week must begin on, or around, a Passover, in order to culminate in fulfillment of the Biblical fall festivals, by Christ.
Fwiw.
It appears that an internecine strugle may have begun in the EU:
http://euobserver.com/9/31600
Anonymous
2Thess2:3 is adamant that THAT day shall NOT come before the The Apostasy/ Departure AND the revealing of the man of sin.
Vs 6 Plainly says a/c is being restrained until vs.7 when the ‘He’ who is restraining evil is taken out of the way.
Vs 8 THEN – and ONLY then – will the a/c be revealed, which is when he confirms/strengthens an agreement with the many for seven years, as told in Daniel9:27
It is imperative we stick responsibly like glue to what The Bible ACTUALLY says, not what we suppose it says.
My reason for concern is that if ‘A’ man confirms ‘AN’ agreement (such as the ENP) and is heralded as ‘THE’ man a/c, and ‘THE’ Covenant BEFORE the prophesied combination, which doesn’t come until AFTER the Restrainer is removed, then I fear the panic and physical harm that will come upon more sensitive souls around the world.
Alarmist, overly excited speculation, could all too easily result in suicides ‘for fear’. It will be bad enough when the reality hits without being the cause of irresponsible, unfounded panic to the untutored church based upon a faulty premise taken out of context.
YES! The time draws nigh; but for goodness sake, calm down, be sensible and take very careful note of Scriptural fact.
Some Bible scholars think the archangel, Michael, is the restrainer spoken of in II Thess. 2:6 (also, many, many believers around the world are already suffering intense persecution, God have mercy).
Fwiw.
Take no pleasure, whatsoever, in posting the following, but believe it to be pertinent to the discussion:
Fwiw, would like to draw your attention to the fact that certain extremists seem to gaining in boldness, with regard to attacks on churches.
1) There are the recent, tragic rash of attacks on churches in Iraq, considered a somewhat unstable country:
http://tinyurl.com/n5hnol
or
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/13/iraq.church.bombings/
2) Then there was the very recent, also very tragic attack on the Egyptian Coptic church; Egypt generally being considered a more stable country (they are also now making contingency plans for the Orthodox calendar, Christmas Eve celebration, may God have mercy):
http://tinyurl.com/2bfdeae
or
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/31/world/main7201972.shtml
One might be forgiven for wondering if the progression in boldness of attacks will continue,
perhaps to coincide with Easter/Passover celebrations, and the suggested "ultimatum" with regards to Israel and the EU letter, in April, which is not to frighten anyone with regard to Easter ceremonies at the Vatican, only to serve as a warning.
P.S. "Birds of a feather flock together," and there seems to be a concurrency of mounting boldness taking place both among certain extremists in the M.E. and among former EU leaders (would personally characterise it as "the mystery of iniquity at work").
Note: Link for EU April "ultimatum" letter:
http://tinyurl.com/36x4jay
or
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11968304
i KNOW THERE IS AN ACCELERATION OF PERSECUTION AGAINST cHURCHES ( NOT MENTIONED ABOVE WAS nIGERIA AT cHRISTMAS.. bUT IN COMPARISON TO THE NUMBER OF CHURCHES AND BELIEVERS AROUND THE WORLD THIS DOES NOT SEEM LIKE TRIBULATION STUFF AT ALL. wE HAVE TO BE PATIENT FOR THE LORD AND NOTE THE MANY CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING AND STAY FAITHFUL THERE IS ONLY A REWARD FOR LOVING HIS APPEARING NOT GETTING ALL THIS STUFF RIGHT..
Scott >>>>>
I guess I was right about Ms. Ashton......I was reading more
a little while ago, sure enough,
she is very busy, very busy.....
Its almost like she has a compelling goal to get the peace
deal done, ie, final issues that
she talks about.
THAT IS CREEPY
and she always uses the word URGENT
why is that ??
you can imagine why
write soon
Stephen !!!!
Expected Imminently,
With all due respect, I don't know what bible you are reading - but no where in Scripture will you find that a "Departure" occurs prior to the man of sin being revealed. Perhaps it is you that should heed your own words when you say:
"It is imperative we stick responsibly like glue to what The Bible ACTUALLY says, not what we suppose it says."
Please re-read 2 Thessalonians 2 - CAREFULLY - you may just discover that there is NO Pretribulation Rapture.
You shouldn't base an opinion based on one scripture.
If you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture you need to explain the following:
- Where is the Church in Rev 6-18?
- Why is the Church already seen in heaven in Rev 19, and when did the "wedding" take place, if not during the Trib?
- What is the meaning of Rev 3:10?
- What was the meaning of the 7 lampstands that John saw in Rev 4? The 24 Elders?
- How do you explain 1 Thess 1:10?
- What is the meaning of Daniel 9:24: "Seventy sevens are decreed for YOUR PEOPLE and YOUR HOLY CITY? (note: I don't see a reference to the Church there).
- If a Rapture takes place during the Trib (or just after) - why is there no description in Rev 6-19?
This is just a start - once these questions are answered I'll have more.
Thats the problem with mid-tribbers or post-tribbers - they will NEVER EVER answer these questions - and usually attempts to do so fail miserably....
God Bless
Scott
Scott,
Please explain the following:
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." (John 6:39)
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:40)
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44)
"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:54)
You see Scott, there is a 1st Resurrection - which is for the Righteous only; that occurs on the LAST DAY, in which we will meet Christ in the clouds. This precedes His Thousand year reign. This occurs AT His Coming. And NOT at some Pre-Trib Rapture that you have come to erroneously fit into your view of End Time eschatology. The 2nd ressurection of course occurs after the thousand year reign, and is for the wicked.
You see, the problem with Pre-Tribbers is that they have too many "make-believe" ideas, that they dream up in order to fit their belief that they will be saved from "tribulation" or the "tribulation period" - and none of their ideas can be supported with Scripture. We will be saved from the Wrath of God - but not from the tribulation period. Scripture is clear on that. If you are a Believer, you will be tried, you will be tested, and some will even be put to death. This is NO different from those who have suffered before us.
So don't get angry......GET SCRIPTURE!
Isn't it great that God doesn't base Salvation on one's view of the Rapture?
Yes thats all well and good, but you are still ignoring the questions asked. No anger whatsoever - what is the basis of that?
I listed specific scriptures to discuss, and you ignored those and turned to hyperbole and a strawman argument of "make-believe" idea.
How come you guys NEVER engage in a serious discussion of the scriptures?
If the "gathering up" occurs at the end of the tribulation - then why is there no description of such in Rev 19?
And why was the church already seen in heaven, celebrating in heaven, BEFORE the second coming?
And why are they describing the wedding which has ALREADY taken place, in heaven, BEFORE the second coming?
And while I'm at it - why not attempt a stab at my specific questions?
You are using John 6 as your basis? Really?
See, thats the typical attempt (I've seen it a thousand times) -to discount the pre-trib rapture. People will find unrelated verses that have no bearing on the Rapture and attempt to make a claim on that basis - while ignoring ALL of the "mainstream" scriptures which are much more appropriate to the discussion.
This is exactly what I discovered when I began studying this 30 years ago, and it hasn't changed since.
Again, lets discuss the first set of questions I asked - and move on from there...(Hint - this discussion NEVER takes place with those 'against' the pre-trib rapture....
Are you not going to bring up J Darby and Margaret MacDonald? Come on, don't let me down!
Just seen this and as I am now drugged for the night I shall have to get back to you.
Quickly, you have ignored the grammar, stopped at verse 3 after which is an aside until Pauls dialogue continues at vs 8.
I am getting crosseyed so time for bed, think abiut it - answer Scotts Q first ok im gone, ttfn.
Oh but Scott, those given passages of Scripture do have bearing on the Rapture, and are very significant, because the Rapture is a Ressurection. So your questions are irrevelant until you and others who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture can understand this.
But of course you Pre-Tribulation Rapture Believers don't want to hear that, because it blows your theory out of the water. I suggest you read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 - which speaks of our meeting Christ in the "AIR" - with the dead in Christ rising first, and then we who are alive, following them thereafter. You also may want to check out 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, which speaks of how the Rapture and the 1st Ressurection correlate.
You can't have a Rapture without a Ressurection.
The celebration that you mention is why I believe in a Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. Meaning that the Church will go through almost all of the Tribulation Period; however just prior to God pouring out His Wrath on the Earth,(at some unknown day and time) He Raptures the Church. I believe that this theory can be supported by Scripture.
You will find no where in Scripture that mentions a 7 year tribulation period, or that the tribulation period is "divided" into a 1st half, and a 2nd half; or that the coming Antichrist will rule for 7 years - all of the aforementioned is based on a Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief, which is very false, and cannot be supported with Scripture. Scripture does mention that 70 weeks have been determined - and most belive that a final week remains; however, have you and others considered that half of this final week may have been completed in Christ's Ministry on Earth, which was 3.5 years - and the week in which the coming Antichrist "confirms" the Covenant with Many is only a "marker" for the final 3.5 years that Scripture DOES mention, and speak of in Daniel, and Revelation?
In closing, I would love for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be true. But the simple fact of the matter is, it simply CANNOT be supported with Scripture. So no, we won't be outta here prior to being tested, tried, persecuted, or even witnessing the apostasy, and the revealing of the Antichrist.
So we all must be prepared to "endure" - and not hope for a non-existant ticket out of here by way of a "Secret Rapture".
I suggest you read Daniel 2,7 and 9 to get your seven year period. Its painfully obvious to anyone with an open mind and w/o preconceived notions.
Also, I suggest that you read Shower's work on the "Pre-Wrath" Rapture, as its the most definitive book on the topic and he takes great detail and depth in dissecting this incorrect view.
And you never answered ANY of my questions/points, which I repeat is TYPICAL of your POV.
Also - you failed to discuss the direction that Daniel was given in Daniel 9, that the 490 year period is intended "for you and your people" - ie, the Jews. You won't hear the Church mentioned in any of the discourse in the time-line given for the Nation of Israel.
Its crystal clear from Daniel 9 that seven years are remaining on the clock for the Nation of Israel - something mutually exclusive from the Church age.
What do you think the meaning of "After this" is, which introduces Chapter 4 in Revelation? Its after the Church age has concluded.
But wait, I can't even get you to engage me on the mainstream verses which describe a pre-trib rapture. After ALL Of this dialogue, you STILL haven't addressed ANY of my points - and this is EXACTLY what the pre-wrath, post-trib, mid-trib groups all do...
They find their more obscure scriptures (by obscure, I mean not typically part of the body of scriptures used to make the pre-trib case, and desperately cling to those, even using convoluted logic with those selected scriptures, and all the while, continuing to ignore the main scriptures. It happens every time....
When I started studying prophecy 30 years ago, and applying sound principles of research to the method, this was the FIRST THING I NOTICED. Your groups will NEVER EVER engage in a serious discussion of the main scriptures. Never. Ever. And you haven't let me down.
Scott....
Apparently you, and others who hold the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view; and have completely read the comments on this forum, and have, in my very humble opinion, not understood that which is plainly written in Scripture........
then all I can say is, that unless you understand the foundation of what the Resurrection is; it timing, and it's purpose - then let's all just agree to disagree.
Thank God it has absolutely NOTHING to do with Salvation.
May God Bless you, and may He open up your understanding, and further Bless your Ministry. I'll be praying for you!
SAME TO YOU ! :)
As I always say, we'll find out soon enough. Lets continue this discussion in New Jerusalem when we have our definitive answers.
God Bless
Scott
Scott I hope you will allow me to answer the suggestion I read 2Thess.2 again?
The Bible I usually read is in English with English grammar rules translated directly from the Greek. i.e the NKJ
I don’t blame Scott for demanding an answer to his straightforward questions. It is very clear that Prerat, Midtrib and Postie mishandle the English grammar that is also supported, I am told, by Greek tense etc.
I find it frustrating that we have to waste so much effort trampling over the grammatical alteration of oblique verses when the simple fact of a Pretrib rapture is clearly evident in Revelation 3:10 AND the Elders are The Church in heaven before the breaking of the first seal, and this is questioned because of one, just one, ‘iffy’ word in their song which is explained by a silly translation issue.
Using the NASB and reading in straight forward English grammar it is clearly evident that 2 Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come (present tense) unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…
This concludes the main clause, thereafter, until vs 8 there is an aside, a (parenthesis) or appositional phrase. Within the aside, which is a reminder to the Thessalonians of what Paul had previously told them in vs.6 “And YOU KNOW what RESTRAINS him now, so that in his time he will be revealed 7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now RESTRAINS will do so until he is taken out of the way.”
That concludes the appositional pause and the main dialogue continues from vs 3 “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,( )8“THEN that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming”.
NASB
As I said previously.
2Thess2:3 is adamant that THAT day shall NOT come before the The Apostasy/ Departure AND the revealing of the man of sin.
Vs 6 Reminder plainly says a/c is being restrained until vs.7b when the ‘HE’ who is restraining evil is taken out of the way.
Vs 8 THEN – and ONLY then – will the a/c be revealed, which is when he confirms/strengthens an agreement with the many for seven years, as told in Daniel 9:27.
Which also means that the a/c is NOT revealed, when the abomination of desolation is set up in the Temple half way into the 70th week of Daniel; (7 full years). Rather at the beginning of the 7 full years when Christ breaks the first seal.
The time WAS (past tense) ‘cut short’ and fixed at seven years ONLY. Perhaps the seven thunders revealed another set of sevens from Leviticus 23 where there are 4lots of x 7 punishments for Israel declared, not just 3. Maybe that is what was ‘cut off’ in the past, whatever, the maths decisively amounts to 7 full years divided into 3 ½ years each.
See you on the way up!
God bless
Sue
Scott I hope you will allow me to answer the suggestion I read 2Thess.2 again?
The Bible I usually read is in English with English grammar rules translated directly from the Greek. i.e the NKJ
I don’t blame Scott for demanding an answer to his straightforward questions. It is very clear that Prerat, Midtrib and Postie mishandle the English grammar that is also supported, I am told, by Greek tense etc.
I find it frustrating that we have to waste so much effort trampling over the grammatical alteration of oblique verses when the simple fact of a Pretrib rapture is clearly evident in Revelation 3:10 AND the Elders are The Church in heaven before the breaking of the first seal, and this is questioned because of one, just one, ‘iffy’ word in their song which is explained by a silly translation issue.
Using the NASB and reading in straight forward English grammar it is clearly evident that 2 Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come (present tense) unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…
This concludes the main clause, thereafter, until vs 8 there is an aside, a (parenthesis) or appositional phrase. Within the aside, which is a reminder to the Thessalonians of what Paul had previously told them in vs.6 “And YOU KNOW what RESTRAINS him now, so that in his time he will be revealed 7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now RESTRAINS will do so until he is taken out of the way.”
That concludes the appositional pause and the main dialogue continues from vs 3 “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,( )8“THEN that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming”.
NASB
As I said previously.
2Thess2:3 is adamant that THAT day shall NOT come before the The Apostasy/ Departure AND the revealing of the man of sin.
Vs 6 Reminder plainly says a/c is being restrained until vs.7b when the ‘HE’ who is restraining evil is taken out of the way.
Vs 8 THEN – and ONLY then – will the a/c be revealed, which is when he confirms/strengthens an agreement with the many for seven years, as told in Daniel 9:27.
Which also means that the a/c is NOT revealed, when the abomination of desolation is set up in the Temple half way into the 70th week of Daniel; (7 full years). Rather at the beginning of the 7 full years when Christ breaks the first seal.
The time WAS (past tense) ‘cut short’ and fixed at seven years ONLY. Perhaps the seven thunders revealed another set of sevens from Leviticus 23 where there are 4lots of x 7 punishments for Israel declared, not just 3. Maybe that is what was ‘cut off’ in the past, whatever, the maths decisively amounts to 7 full years divided into 3 ½ years each.
See you on the way up!
God bless
Sue
Sue,
Of course I agree with all of that. :)
Those who believe in fairness should Google "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,"Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Walvoord Melts Ice," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Edward Irving is Unnerving" - all from the "Rush Limbaugh of the Rapture" who has focused on pretrib history for 40 years! Has anyone else focused on it for even 40 weeks?
Arthur
And "Stamping Out Harold Camping" (on Google etc.) is good also.
Nick
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