[This is another excellent article from Pete Garcia over at the Omega Letter]
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
With September 23rd right around the corner, I found it necessary to write to you concerning the hype and the hope of the Revelation 12 sign. My intent here is not to curb your enthusiasm pertaining what may or may not be an event, but to guard it. First let me add my concern that on both sides, i.e., the militant supporters and cynical critics of this event, have wrought much division to the body of Christ. They have done this by remaining dogmatic in their opinions over a speculative event that may not pan out to be anything, or it may end up being everything. While one side lobs half-truths, the other returns fire with trolling and threats. I have tried to keep an open-mind concerning this and I would like to bring both the positive and negative points out concerning Revelation 12 and the attention it has recently gotten.
The Good
But let me begin with some positives concerning the Revelation 12 Sign “movement” if I can call it that. Anytime a passage of Scripture gets global attention, I think that is a good sign. It gets people asking questions about the Bible that they normally wouldn’t. Furthermore, it gets Christians back in their Bibles acting like they should have been, like Bereans. It also directs people’s attention to the return of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Inevitably, this will, even if unintentionally, wake some people up from the slumber this world has blinded them with. Lastly, much good scholarship concerning the doctrine of the Church, the Rapture, and timing in general has come because of this.
The Bad
The negatives than are that some will be convinced that something will absolutely have to happen on September 23rd. If September 23rd comes and goes without anything major or significant changing, many who planted all their hopes and dreams on that date will become disillusioned and drift away from the faith. Those who are not Christians will inevitably use this as simply one more thing they can pin on those “wacky” Christians who are waiting for a Messiah who will never come. I believe that Revelation 12 movement may only further validate the scoffing as found in 2 Peter 3:3-4 by fueling the skeptics to ask “Where is the promise of His coming?”
The Bottom Line
Pinning all of our Rapture credibility and our hopes on a specific date (for whatever reason) is both foolish and irresponsible. I understand that those serious about this date are not calling for a Rapture, but there are some who are. No matter how solid our evidence seems, our God sees the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:9-10), so His ways may not seem logical to us at the present, no matter how much we want Him to conform to our patterns and logic. Secondly, relying on extra biblical sources cannot and should not be substituted for clear, biblical teachings on any given subject, no matter how compelling they may seem.
Assessment
So with those issues out of my way, there has been much said by both the proponents and opponents concerning the September 23rd Revelation 12 issue. Even though I am not a believer in this event per se, I find myself supporting its claims more than denying them, simply because there has been such poor scholarship done in critiquing it on the side of our prophecy ‘experts.’ Some of the false charges have been:
- All supporters of the September 23rd event view this as the date of the Rapture
- No legitimate bible scholars view Revelation 12 as a pre-tribulation passage
- No man knows the day or hour, thus, the Revelation 12 proponents are all ‘false prophets’
- Revelation 12 is in the middle of the book of Revelation, thus cannot point to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture passage
- The child in Revelation can only be Christ
I would like to address these point by point (in the same order) to clarify some of the misconceptions put out there by well-meaning theologians, pastors, and media personalities.
- None of the serious supporters of the Revelation 12 have stated that the Rapture will definitively happen on September 23rd or 24th. Some of them have added that the convergence of all the events together makes a strong case being then (or even in 2017), but none are telling folks to sell their things, move to the mountains, and wait for that day. That was what Harold Camping did, and I haven’t seen anyone in this group with any clout do that so far.
- John N. Darby, Harry Ironside, Michael Svigel, Chuck Missler, and other bible scholars have held views that Revelation 12 is a strong Pre-Trib passage as well as the child also being the church. This view is not outside the mainstream.
- While I agree with the general statement that “no man knows the day or hour,” I also have to balance that against another later statement by Jesus in Revelation 3:3, in which He holds the Church accountable for knowing the hour of His coming.
- In context, when Jesus explained the Olivet Discourse, He answered truthfully that ‘no man’ knew. At that point of time, in His incarnation, this was not yet revealed to Him.
- We then see post-Calvary, resurrection, and ascension that the Father gave the Son the Revelation of things to come, which makes it all too reasonable to believe that Jesus was told the when and how (Rev. 1:1) because He is the (Rev. 1:8).
- This, in my opinion, strengthens the argument for the seven churches of Revelation 2-3 representing the seven stages (or eras) the church would progress through.
- Revelation 12 is nestled in the middle of Revelation. That does not, however, mean that all the events are nestled snuggly in the middle of the 70th Week. Rev 12 (like Rev 11 and 13) are parenthetical insertions which span all or part of the entire seven years. Furthermore, Revelation 12 seems to be outlining events in a corporate manner that parallel Christ’s first coming (which were singular). For instance:
- The woman singularly was Mary. In Revelation 12, she is Israel corporately.
- The child singularly was Christ. Corporately “he” is the Church (i.e., His head and body)
- The dragon singularly was personified as Herod. Corporately it is Satan and his entities (or the beast system)
This appears to make much more sense in keeping with the “prophetic” or “future” nature of Revelation (Revelation 1:1, 3, 19, 4:1-2). In other words, this isn’t simply a rehashing (or historical rendering) or Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and ascension, but something much more intriguing.
- Opponents of the Revelation 12 sign openly scoff at the notion that the Child/child in Revelation 12 could also represent the Church.
- The child in Rev 12 is differentiated between huios (masculine) to teknon (neuter) who did not ascend but was ‘harpazo’. From my understanding of Luke 24:51, Jesus was anapherÅ (carried up, not snatched up) to heaven.
- If it was meant to convey Christ here in verse 12:5, why use harpazo if that is not what actually happened? This is why I believe John was told to use this particular phrasing.
- The Church is also promised to rule with a ‘rod of iron’ (Rev. 2:26-27). And as Christ is the head, and the Church is the body, it is not inconceivable that we also will rule in some capacity as Scripture indicates.
Conclusion
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:36
This verse has been the champion of anti-date setters for millennia and for good cause. I believe it has tempered the tendencies of believers who are living through incredibly difficult times to not want to jump after every sign and symbol as their ticket out of here. My main issue with continuing to use this as the catch-all verse is that later, revelatory passages seem to conflict with it. Scripture as given to the Apostle Paul (the mysteries revealed) and even Jesus Himself seem to indicate that we should know the hour and the day.
But first, notice what Jesus doesn’t say; “But of the day and hour no one knows or will ever know.” The passage was written in the present-tense, and thus seems to indicate the truth of what was known at that point in time. In His human form, Jesus rightly stated that “no man knows” because, at that time (context here), He was both fully God and fully man. But in His humanity, He willingly and obediently limited Himself in His power of omniscience to trust fully in His Father’s plan. Just as we humans can’t see into the future, it stands to reason, that God becoming a man, would limit Himself in like-manner so as to be tested as we are in all things (Hebrews 4:15). Yet, He did it without sinning. Doubt is intricately tied to not knowing, which as James 1:6 and Hebrews 11:1 point out, destroys faith. Jesus demonstrated perfect faith in the Father, which would by necessity mean He limited Himself in what He knew if He were to be tested in every way as we mortals are.
But as indicated in Revelation 1:1, Jesus was given the Revelation at some point after His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. This was what the Apostle John, imprisoned on the isle of Patmos in 95AD, was witness to. In His seven letters, Jesus tells the church at Sardis this:
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Revelation 3:3
As Robert Breaker academically points out in his great YouTube videos, the opposite of not knowing what hour He will come, is knowing the hour He will come. This then supports Hebrews 10:25 in that we will see the Day approaching. Well, if we truly had no way of knowing anything concerning our Lord’s return, both Rev. 3:3 and Hebrews 10:25 couldn’t be true. How can we see the Day approaching if we had no way of knowing what or when that Day was? The Apostle Paul includes a similar theme in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-6:
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6
The Messiah (Jesus Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament of having two comings. We know that in hindsight, but the first century Jews mistakenly believed that it was only one coming. They also believed that when the Christ did come, He would immediately usher in the Kingdom in that same arrival. Even Jesus’s disciples didn’t fully understand this after all was said and done (Acts 1:6-7).
The First Coming was explicitly given to the Jews in the 70 Weeks of Daniel prophecy. This narrowed it to the year of His entry into the city of Jerusalem to which we know as Palm Sunday (Luke 19:41-44). Were the Pharisees and Sadducees wrong for not recognizing the time of their visitation? Absolutely, Jesus held them accountable for not knowing (Matthew 16:1-4). Likewise, I believe, given the number of warnings and admonitions to watch and be ready in the New Testament, the Church will also be held responsible for being caught off guard. Why watch if we don’t know what we are watching for? Watchfulness has both a singular and corporate application:
- We as individuals don’t know the time of our own death, so we must always be prepared to meet the Lord
- We as a body of believers, must watch to recognize the season of our Lord’s return
While it is impossible to know exactly when the Rapture will occur, I believe that the compounding nature of mankind’s sin (there is a fullness coming), the convergence of prophetic events, and the timing in relation to Israel’s rebirth as a nation, all must be taking into account. I also believe that although we won’t know the specific day of the Rapture, we should recognize the season. Furthermore, as Christ literally fulfilled the Spring Feasts in order, it stands to reason that He will also fulfill the Fall Feasts literally in order as well. How the feasts tie into the Church’s departure, is up for debate.
To me, it would make sense that He either return for His Church in 2017 or 2018 at the latest, given the significance of the specific timing relating to Israel’s return as a nation (parable of the fig tree). Then again, I am not God so His ways and thinking trump my understanding. He may have some other design that is more in keeping with the fullness of time than anything I can conceive. With that said, if you are a believer in Jesus Christ, we should be excited about the soon return of our Lord. Given our current state of affairs both here and abroad, things will not continue on indefinitely. As Pastor J.D. Farag once noted, our world has a shelf-life.
So we temper our hope against the hype by staying in the word of God and testing everything by it. While the Revelation 12 movement has many positive aspects to it, like with everything else, we must put it to the test. And it may be that September 23rd comes and goes, but that should not diminish our hope in the Lord’s soon return. My hope was never in a date, but in a Person, the God-Man Jesus Christ. The hope we have was made possible by Jesus Christ, who redeems us from sin and death. We are not simply being saved to be saved, But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-7)
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. Luke 21:28
Not surprised that one of the best articles I have read yet regarding the Revelation 12 sign is written by Pete Garcia. Very well done and very balanced. The picture of him on the Omega web site does not make him look like a scholar (Ha Ha) but he certainly defies the stereotype I have of an intellectual. So yes he is indeed brilliant even though he looks more like Rambo than say a Chuck Missler. Looks can be deceiving.
ReplyDeleteKeep looking up! Maranatha!
Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the Church, or the Rapture whatsoever. It has everything to do with the Jewish Believers of the Tribulation. Its always very telling, with these ear-ticklers, how they only select certain Verses, out of context, and never examine the rest of the Scriptures within that Chapter. For example, Isaiah 17, if not completely ignored, they may pick up on Verse 1 and thats it.
ReplyDeleteSo is with this grossly misinterpreted Chapter of Revelation 12. They take the first few Verses, and TRY to turn it into something its not. Do they read the rest of it? No...sigh God goes on, to explain what He will do to protect His People, the Jewish Believers, during the Tribulation for 3 1/2 years. That is not the Church He is protecting whatsoever.
Just as with Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to His Jewish Disciples, of what will occur to Jewish Believers during the Tribulation. The Jewish Believers, still adhere to the Jewish law, and they are the ones, as Jesus said, have to worry about fleeing Jerusalem after dark, against the Sabbath.
After God gives a brief lineage of His People,of Jesus, makes it very clear it is His People He protects from Satan(the dragon) during the Trib, He then makes it very clear who they are, just as Jesus did..they are Jewish Believers of the Tribulation, not the Church...
Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I firmly believe,however, that matthew 24:36-42 are verses that point to the rapture (as opposed to second coming) for a host of reasons. Two that stand out; at the end of the tribulation (2nd coming view) - the world will be in complete darkness and 100lb hailstones will be falling. There is no way, in that environment that people are in the field working together or at the hand mill working. Not to mention following 7 years of intense persecution that a believer and non believer will be working together is impossible to see. Plus the verb for taken in that passag is the same verb used in John 14 which we know unequivocally is a rapture reference. Plus before and after that passage we see that no one knows the day or hour. If you are a believer during the tribulation you WILL be able to calculate the day as thebible gives us the exact number of days from the covenent of Dan 9:27 (confirming the covenant) tillthe second coming. Therefore that passage on matthew 24 has to be a rapture reference as opposed to a second coming reference.
ReplyDeleteFwiw, Hal Lindsey Perry Stone and David Jeremiah see that passage as a rapture passage just to name 3 familiar prophecy scholars
ReplyDeleteFeast of Passover- fulfilled by Jesus, The Lamb, at Calvary
ReplyDeleteFeast of Unleavened Bread - Jesus as Bread of Life
Feast of First Fruits - was fulfilled by Jesus in His Resurrection. But also it was Jesus presenting His First Fruits to Our Father. A sampling of the Rapture of the Church to come...
Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Pentecost - fulfilled -(50 days from First Fruits)
The next to be fulfilled will be Rosh Hoshanna, the Feast of Trumpets.
The name "Rosh Hashanah" is not even used in the Bible to discuss this holiday. The Bible refers to the holiday as Yom HaZikkaron (the day of remembrance) or Yom T'ruah (the day of the sounding of the shofar). The holiday is stated in Leviticus 23:24-25. As Zola used to say, they have taken Gods Feast, and turned it into something God never declared it to be, some kind of New Years celebration, when in fact, it is supposed to be a time of deep reflection etc.
Leviticus 23:24-25
24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
The very meaning of the Feast has changed over the centuries, and the actual day, time frame is not accurate either. This is because of various Rabbi's adding - subtracting to the date based on Adam, Jewish leap years, etc. Jesus will indeed fulfill this Feast, but who knows when, we dont.We know the Season, but not a date.
The suggestion in this article, that Jesus "being human" when He stated the "no man knows the hour", therefore He didnt really know the time of His Return is beyond absurd. That is to me, insinuating that Jesus was either naive or a liar, in His "human form", which He was neither!
Jesus knew He was the Son Of God, while in His "human form", Jesus knew He could have called down legions of Angeles from Heaven, in His "human form". Why not just Believe in what He said? He said, that ONLY His Father in Heaven knew,and that was still the same when He went back to Heaven! It is the bridegroom’s Father who determines the day and the
hour of the wedding. He would do so only after His Son had prepared a place for his Bride, therefore Jesus was saying just that! Our Heavenly Father will say to His Son Jesus, put down the hammer...I say you are done preparing a fine home (He wants to make sure it isnt some rushed lean-to shed lol)...go get your Bride!
Truly, no offense, but men are fallible, just say'n. :) Whew, Ill go along with Hal & David, but Perry I have serious issues with for sure. I owe Bros Hal ,for Eternity I will thank him, for personally leading me to Christ,but that doesnt mean after 30+ years of walking with the Lord, I cant agree to disagree with my original teacher on some things :)lol
ReplyDeleteI have to respectfully disagree :) Matthew 24:36-42 are both - they are speaking to the Jewish Disciples present, Jewish Believers of the Tribulation, and confirmation, for the Churches observation in the peanut gallery's so as to speak. :) All of Mathew 24, is dual, paralleled for both the Jewish Believers & the Church. Example, for the Verses 36-42
ReplyDeleteJesus makes it clear after His example of warnings in Vs 44. “the coming of the Son of Man”, that is Second Coming.
Noah - To the Jewish Believers, in short, it represents swift Judgment from God upon sinners, and the Righteous were Saved.
To the Church, in short, Jesus is our Ark that will shelter us, remove us from Gods Judgment to come upon this sinful world.
The Field & Mill workers-
To the Jewish Believers, this again, represents swift accountability & Judgment from God. This has nothing to do with the physical environment of the Tribulation. As Zola explained,any Jewish person of Jesus's time, all the way until present time would understand this example Jesus gave, just as with the Noah reference. Jesus is doubling down, so as to speak, to the Jewish people, in regard to God's swift Judgment that came to those who rebelled against Him. What they would understand, is that in Jesus's day, (and still continues today) Gentiles (think Arabs ex) & Jewish people worked side by side in the fields. During the High Holy days, from the corners of the Temple, the Shofars would be blown to announce, signal, the beginning of the Holy Festival. The Jewish workers in the fields, in the mills, were required by Law, to stop working immediately and leave their locations to come up to the Holy Temple for the Festival of the Day of Atonement. They were not allowed to work on that day, and would have to go to the
Temple to atone for their sins, while the Gentiles continued with the work.Again, the message from Jesus to the Jewish People, is swift Judgement.Fascinatingly, when Judgement comes, the Jewish People will be Judged separately from all others, and the 12 Disciples will be their Judges! Whew!
To the Church – We see this is a “twinkling of an eye” moment, the Rapture.
Jesus spoke to both the Church ,the Disciples, and future Tribulation generation of Jewish Believers. He gave we the Church, the knowing and assurance that we will be removed from this sinful world, as He is our Ark & He atoned for us. He warned the future Tribulation Jewish People, that when He returns, it will be swift, like a thief, and His Judgement will be executed...
I'm of the opinion that Matt 24:35-36 do not speak of the rapture. The preceding verse (v 35) says heaven and earth shall pass away and then Jesus follows up v35 with v36 "but in THAT day".....what day? The day that heaven and earth pass away.
ReplyDeleteWhen the rapture occurs, heaven and earth do not pass away. At the end of the tribulation, heaven and earth do not pass away. Heaven and earth do not pass away until the end of the millennium. I believe that is the day Jesus was referencing. He was talking to His Jewish disciples, and they believed that the messiah was coming to establish his kingdom (the millennial reign). The church was not yet created because Jesus had not gone to the cross. The "mystery" of the rapture would not have been known to the Jewish disciples, IMO because it was not revealed until Paul said "behold, I tell you a mystery...." Cor 15:51. Anyway, it's not a salvational issue...just my thoughts.
Matt 24:35-36 "35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
We are closer today than when we first believed! Blessings!
Thats all well and good - but no one can answer these basic questions to my satisfaction (and without doing scriptural gymnastics)
ReplyDeleteIf that passage is at the end the end of the Tribulation - how is it that people are working in the fields in total darkness and dodging 100 lb hailstones. Hows that work?
Why did Jesus use the same verb (taken "with") that was used in John 14? That verbiage was never used when we see "cast out" or "cast away" which is what is happening (according to that view) is its a 2nd coming scripture?
Additionally the sheep and goats are both gathered before Jesus at the second coming - there isn't a separation there
There is nothing anywhere in the bible that shows a separation like that at the end of the 1000 yr reign - God will thwart the anti-Christ coalition and we don't have much beyond that.
If you review prophetic scriptures, there is often a large gap in time, even within a single verse (look at Jesus first public reading of the scriptures - - he intentionally deleted the last verse because it didn't pertain to that time,..referring to Luke 4:21 when Jesus was referencing 61:2 - in one verse we see "to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the day of the vengeance of our God"...Here in one verse we see a massive separation in time, i.e. the first coming and the Tribulation. So that is very common in prophecy, so its quite possible (probable) that we see the same thing in Matthew 24...
Plus, and people give context ON TOP of the context already given,,,When Jesus said its like the days of Noah, he then described life going on as normal (people eating and drinking, getting married etc - we don't need additional context because Jesus GAVE the context...Life as normal....Thats hardly the situation at the end of the Tribulation...Adding additional context is adding to the very words that Jesus gave, as he defined what He meant by "days of noah"
You may be right...no intent on my part to say you're wrong. I stated my opinion....I never said I was right. There are more than enough people that will tell you they have it totally figured out, and their way is the only one that could be right. As scripture says, we see through a glass dimly.
ReplyDeleteIm not necessarily emphatically saying that im "right" and anyone else is "wrong" and im sorry if i came across that way (this is how we discuss things in medicine:)). But what im saying is - someone with the other view has to somehow show me where that "view" of those itemized points are wrong. Because i cant get past those points, therefore i hold that view. If someone has a convincing different view on that im all ears. Im just saying at this point i havent been convinced otherwise
ReplyDeleteUnderstood....and I agree with you on the discussion part. If we all had the same opinion or saw things the exact same way, we'd be doomed IMO.
ReplyDeleteMy view has come to be based on several things....in no particular order.
- Rev 3:3 "....because you do not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what HOUR I come". Meaning that if you are watching (as commanded) you will know the hour.
-Matt 24:51 “and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he DOES NOT EXPECT HIM him and at an HOUR he is not aware of.”
Again, the good servant is watching and will know the hour.
1Thess 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Heb 10:25 "...encourage one another, all the more as you see the day approaching". We will see the day approaching
- Noah was warned before the flood (120 years, and 7 days before it began)
-2 Kings 2 - Elijah, Elisha, and multiple prophets (50 to be exact) knew the day Elijah would be taken to heaven.
The biblical pattern is that God warns/alerts those He loves and only those who refuse to look will be caught unawares. After studying these various verses, it is my opinion that "no man knows the hour" would contradict the verseS I've listed.
Everyone mentions Matt 24:36, but no one mentions Matt 24:35. The original text didn't have chapter breaks (I know you know this), but I think we lose the context sometimes because man has placed breaks where they MAY NOT (again, just my opinion) be necessary. Anyway, sorry for the long response (and the delay, cooking dinner :) ),
but I hope that better explains my position.
I dont really base my pov on the scripture around knowing the day or the hour (its interesting and worthy of discussion but not the basis of my opinion of the pre-trib nature of the passage - but rather those other points (days of noah, inconsistency with life at the end of the trib vs life before the trib, the use of "taken" as in John 14, the idea that believers would be working with and sleeping with non believers at the end of the trib, etc). But in the big picture it doesnt really matter. We dont need this to prove the pre trub rapture in fact i rarely present this in public just to avoid the debate. For sine reason its always interested me
ReplyDelete